Is Viv Richards an Overrated Test Batsman?

[Burgey]

Touche...

In my defense. I have not done that.

Anyway, Viv was great against fast bowling. Every body and their grandma know that. The courage,braveness and swagger he displayed was outstanding and a sight to behold.

But why use that to dismiss what Tendulkar has achieved. He was no less a batsman in terms courage and bravery. Without bravery and courage he couldn't have survived making a debut against Waqar Younis, Wasim Akram and Imran Khan at the age of 16. In that series he took a number of body blows and refused medical attention even when he was bleeding from the nose, and asked the bowler to carry on. Not many fast bowlers have managed to land a body blow to him after that either. It seems people are looking for a weakness that does not exist.

Well, he can do it because it's a cricket forum and he's posted his opinion.

There's been that much **** posted on here in the past 12 months or more - ridiculous "vs" threads, the slagging of one player to promote another's record over them, the list goes on. And so do many of the posts.

Then someone opens a new thread questioning another player's record, posts something to back it up (not that I agree with it but that's hardly the point) and it gets closed within 24 hours.

I guess some players are simply beyond any criticism at all. I really don't see any other inference that can be drawn from it.

 

[Jono]

Haha, Sachin's records have been analysed and criticised/defended so much on CW, I hardly think he's beyond criticism on here.

That thread got closed because of the nature of the argument, not the topic. I imagine that was the case anyway, though I'm clearly not a mod.

 

[Burgey]

No it got closed because the original poster had made his point, and others had responded, or wtte.

cf:

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cri...ash-gupte-over-shane-warne-8.html#post2332937
http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cricket-chat/47771-ponting-murali-who-greater-test-cricketer-4.html
and Warne v Murali, Ponting v Tendulkar, and indeed this thread, as several of many examples.

 

[Slifer]

I know this series. The story you say is quite the exaggeration.

Greenidge was woefully out of form in that series, and in fact Fredricks opened with a different middle order bat as opener in each game. Viv Richards walked out to open with him in the last game of the series if i remember right.

If my memory serves me right, i think Kallicharan absolutely destroyed Dennis Lille in one of the games in that series. There is a clip of that on the youtube somewhere. Or is that some other series??

This is what happens when we speak about players we like. There is always a fair degree of viewing with rose tinted glass and nostalgic romanticizing.

Edit: yes i do recall Viv was absolutely awesome when he did open.

Viv opened in the last two tests after Greenidge's confidence had been completely shattered. And if my memory serves me correctly Kalli destroyed Lillee in an ODi not test. Ne way on a side note, I could never forget the sheer number of injuries sustained by West Indian batsmen during this series as a result of the short stuff from Lillee and co. Funny that years later when West Indies returned in kind the administrators were so quick to criticise them for intimidating bowling (eventually resulting in the bouncer laws)

 

[Teja.]

No it got closed because the original poster had made his point, and others had responded, or wtte.

cf:

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cri...ash-gupte-over-shane-warne-8.html#post2332937
http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cricket-chat/47771-ponting-murali-who-greater-test-cricketer-4.html
and Warne v Murali, Ponting v Tendulkar, and indeed this thread, as several of many examples.

Nah, It was closed for a few hours because the discussion was getting heated, It's open again now.

 

[Jono]

No it got closed because the original poster had made his point, and others had responded, or wtte.

cf:

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cri...ash-gupte-over-shane-warne-8.html#post2332937
http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cricket-chat/47771-ponting-murali-who-greater-test-cricketer-4.html
and Warne v Murali, Ponting v Tendulkar, and indeed this thread, as several of many examples.

Examples of what?

Examples of CW getting in bitch fights when Sachin's record is analysed? No doubt.

But not an example of CW closing threads when someone criticises Sachin. Saying that is the case is a bridge to far.

 

[kingjulian]

I guess some players are simply beyond any criticism at all. I really don't see any other inference that can be drawn from it.

I'm happy with that..for the players who have stood out in their time at least. For the likes of Greenidge, Greg Chappell, Richards, Gavaskar, Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting, Dravid etc....i really don't see the point of picking flaws. In most cases they are perceived or manufactured flaws. Eg...Tendulkar is a bottler. Ponting cannot play spin bowling. Absolute rubbish. Their numbers are what it is after playing a helluva lot of world class test bowlers. It's not just about how they went against Dennis Lillee and Jeff Thomson. A batsman would face a particular fast bowler for what 150 overs in his career? That pales in comparison to all the other great/good/average/rubbish bowlers they have faced. Even a rubbish bowler in test cricket can get your wicket with careful planning.

To me this article describes Tendulkar and Lara perfectly. There are quotes from various big players' that absolutely rubbishes some of the expert comment about his technique/defense/inability to attack fast bowlers etc...

CaribbeanCricket.com - The Independent Voice of West Indies Cricket

There are tons of people who have seen Sachin Tendulkar bat, but no one is going to say he had a weakness against "Fast bowlers". Yet, you come to this forum, and it is filled with bile like that.

He was not a batsman who was prone to look out of touch till about 2003, and the tennis elbow incident changed something. If not for that 2 and half year period. His record, average/strike rate/runs whatever, would have reached stratospheric heights, if it isn't there already. Why belittle what he has done? If his batting is not your cup of tea, then it is a personal thing. You don't really have to go and fabricate things about him, do you?

Many bowlers have had a go at him, yet he has been very consistent. There has got to be something he is doing right...credit where it's due.

Hey...lets forget all that and continue the mud slinging.

 

[kingjulian]

Viv opened in the last two tests after Greenidge's confidence had been completely shattered. And if my memory serves me correctly Kalli destroyed Lillee in an ODi not test. Ne way on a side note, I could never forget the sheer number of injuries sustained by West Indian batsmen during this series as a result of the short stuff from Lillee and co. Funny that years later when West Indies returned in kind the administrators were so quick to criticise them for intimidating bowling (eventually resulting in the bouncer laws)

Haha ya...around the wicket and target the head. I have always had a theory that, that particular type of bowling is easier for a shorter batsman to play. Gavaskar, Sachin....Richards was not particularly tall either.

Australians didn't like it at all when they started getting beamers in the Caribbean tour.....

 

[Burgey]

Examples of what?

Examples of CW getting in bitch fights when Sachin's record is analysed? No doubt.

But not an example of CW closing threads when someone criticises Sachin. Saying that is the case is a bridge to far.

No, an example of a thread being closed when it wasn't one-tenth as OTT as however many others which were left open. The thread was no where near getting into bitch fight territory and anyway, that wasn't the reason given for why it was closed.

 

[robelinda]

Viv's confidence had been close to shattered too during 75/76, opening was his only option at that stage of the tour. 7 scores in a row without making 50, up and down the order from 3 to 7, and he says openly he didnt know what to do to combat the bowlers. He then opened and attacked, and it worked. Not much footage of that tour available as the ABC lost most of it during a flood in the 80's, its the one season every cricket fan wants to see from years gone by. I'm told some highlights are left, about 90 mins from 2 or 3 of the tests, but hard to obtain, lord knows ive tried for 20 years!!!!

 

[Altaican]

Viv opened in the last two tests after Greenidge's confidence had been completely shattered. And if my memory serves me correctly Kalli destroyed Lillee in an ODi not test. Ne way on a side note, I could never forget the sheer number of injuries sustained by West Indian batsmen during this series as a result of the short stuff from Lillee and co. Funny that years later when West Indies returned in kind the administrators were so quick to criticise them for intimidating bowling (eventually resulting in the bouncer laws)

Slifer, you don't have to justify. Certain posts (or posters) just aren't worth replying to . Their only intention is to lead to a flame-war and get the thread closed. Just surprised though at the amount of slack mods are giving those insecure Sachin fans :O, considering robelinda was warned for something trivial.

Coming back to your post, you are correct on all notes. You just need to look at the Aus-WI series scorecards to see the number of retired hurts (in fall-of-wickets section of the scorecards). Kallicharan himself was one of the victims (had his nose broken by a Lillee bouncer, in the Perth match I think). Lloyd got hit in the face too, as did several other players including Holding. Greenidge admitted later that Thommo's spells were frighteningly quick, and it really did affect his confidence. Windies then got the message that if you have an array of fast bowlers, use them to intimidate and subjugate the opposition.

Hapless Bishen Singh Bedi's men were the first targets of the Windies pacemen. They continously hammered all teams, with the probable exception of Pakistan, at home and away, and this was the reason the laws were changed (every other Board would have readily voted for the change in bouncer law). An astonishing number of batsmen were hit during mid 70s and 80s. Bowlers like Sylvester Clarke, Roberts and Marshall quite openly targeted the batsman's body. They mastered the art of bowling bouncers at a fearsome pace at an uncomfortable height (between chest and chin) forcing batsmen to play at it.

 

[Burgey]

I'm happy with that..for the players who have stood out in their time at least. For the likes of Greenidge, Greg Chappell, Richards, Gavaskar, Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting, Dravid etc....i really don't see the point of picking flaws. In most cases they are perceived or manufactured flaws. Eg...Tendulkar is a bottler. Ponting cannot play spin bowling. Absolute rubbish. Their numbers are what it is after playing a helluva lot of world class test bowlers. It's not just about how they went against Dennis Lillee and Jeff Thomson. A batsman would face a particular fast bowler for what 150 overs in his career? That pales in comparison to all the other great/good/average/rubbish bowlers they have faced. Even a rubbish bowler in test cricket can get your wicket with careful planning.

To me this article describes Tendulkar and Lara perfectly. There are quotes from various big players' that absolutely rubbishes some of the expert comment about his technique/defense/inability to attack fast bowlers etc...

CaribbeanCricket.com - The Independent Voice of West Indies Cricket

There are tons of people who have seen Sachin Tendulkar bat, but no one is going to say he had a weakness against "Fast bowlers". Yet, you come to this forum, and it is filled with bile like that.

He was not a batsman who was prone to look out of touch till about 2003, and the tennis elbow incident changed something. If not for that 2 and half year period. His record, average/strike rate/runs whatever, would have reached stratospheric heights, if it isn't there already. Why belittle what he has done? If his batting is not your cup of tea, then it is a personal thing. You don't really have to go and fabricate things about him, do you?

Many bowlers have had a go at him, yet he has been very consistent. There has got to be something he is doing right...credit where it's due.

Hey...lets forget all that and continue the mud slinging.

Sorry, "you come to this forum"? Is that a general "you" or do you mean me? Because if you've arrived here 10 minutes ago and think you know what I think about Tendulkar as a batsman, and this is what you think, you're badly mistaken.

 

[Jono]

No, an example of a thread being closed when it wasn't one-tenth as OTT as however many others which were left open. The thread was no where near getting into bitch fight territory and anyway, that wasn't the reason given for why it was closed.

Hmm, maybe your'e right.

Tough to find the right balance though I guess.

 

[Burgey]

Hmm, maybe your'e right.

Tough to find the right balance though I guess.

Yeah it is, and I'm not having a crack at the mod who closed it because he's a champ.

And tbf it's probably better than it degenerating like others have. You can rest assured if it did I would have been the first to bitch about it

 

[GotSpin]

Need more poo flinging threads I reckon

 

[Burgey]

Need more poo flinging threads I reckon

AWTA.

z

 

[kingjulian]

No generally...not directed at you. This is definitely one of the most hostile forums towards tendulkar i have seen.....by a long shot.

Every other post is a dig at the man. You all keep talking about Sachin fan boys ruining the forum, but yet most of the posts (based on what i have seen in the last few days) about Sachin is because it was provoked.

You guys know very well that, all you need to do is take a petty pot shot at Tendulkar and the stat army will come out of their holes, and you use it. Try denying that.

I have not seen new threads started where it says Sachin Tendulkar is better than this batsman and that batsman. Yet when you would like to speak about any other great batsman, you always drag the man in to the picture....it says something about him, if he remains somekind of benchmark.

If you want the Sachin fan boys to stop talking about his stats, you guys should try not dissing him or belittling him. Why provoke if you don't like the reaction?

A general ban on "Who is better" type of threads would be a good idea for this forum...

 

[Sanz]

They r what inferior?? After a similar amount of innings (which is what i assume he meant) stats wise their close (runs, average etc). Tendy has far more runs and centuries now but thats as much a product of more matches than ne thing else.

I don't for a moment think that Lara/Tendy are better than Viv, but the statement in bold is wrong. After his 183 innings Tendy had an average of 57.7, 33 100s and 1000 more runs than Viv.

Tendy was marginally ahead of Lara as well in average, no. of 100s and 50s in similar innings, Lara did have more runs on the board though.

 

[Jono]

A general ban on "Who is better" type of threads would be a good idea for this forum...

Nah, step too far.

Just take criticism of Sachin in your stride. Feel free to reply to it, but don't get angry and emotionally invested. Not worth it.

People have the right to have a go at Sachin's record if they like. If they are making **** arguments, either ignore it, or shut them down.

 

[kingjulian]

Viv's confidence had been close to shattered too during 75/76, opening was his only option at that stage of the tour. 7 scores in a row without making 50, up and down the order from 3 to 7, and he says openly he didnt know what to do to combat the bowlers. He then opened and attacked, and it worked. Not much footage of that tour available as the ABC lost most of it during a flood in the 80's, its the one season every cricket fan wants to see from years gone by. I'm told some highlights are left, about 90 mins from 2 or 3 of the tests, but hard to obtain, lord knows ive tried for 20 years!!!!

This is a more factual reporting.

There was no "Let me go and teach Greenidge, how it's done" element to it. Every body struggled in the first 3 or 4 tests and they started making radical changes. Some batsmen were injured too.