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Is Viv Richards an Overrated Test Batsman?

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
I already did.

I started off typing it up as a post in a Sehwag discussion thread in response to claims he would've been dire in an another era, essentially just to point out that it was not only guesswork but irrelevant, but I ended up posting such a full-blown rant/theory that I made it into a new thread.

The same applies to, for example, bowlers from 1910 on uncovered wickets. Their job was to do well on what they were given, comparative to their contemporaries, not bowl in a way that'd make them still useful 100 years down the track. That is why I will always include Barnes and Lohmann in my all-time XI - sure they played in an era where bowling average expectations were higher, but not as high as what they achieved. They were so far ahead of the average player that it wasn't funny - further apart from the pack than any bowler has ever been since.

In depends what you picking that all-time XI for. If its a wall of fame XI to hang or your wall, then the likes of Trumper, Barnes etc would be given their record & impact on the game.

But if its a hypotetical match-up where you are putting them to face some of the greatest bowlers & all-time (Trumper) & batsman who would be free from the unfair advantage of batting on uncovered wickets (Barnes, Johhny Blythe etc). Then pre-war (1900-1939) players cannot be compared to post war (1945-1990) players given they played totally different era of cricket, when the trends & styles of cricket was different. Such players become immediate achillies heels to your teams, since it would extremely naive to expect them to do well, againts bowlers (90 mph, reverse-swing bowlers) or batsman who didn't have to deal with uncovered wickets, who they never played againts during their careers.

A bowler like Derek Underwood, lost ALOT of effectiveness (although he was still very good) in the 70s when uncovered wickets basically ceased to exist. That in itself proves how diffcult in a hypotetical ATXI match it would be for the likes of Barnes etc to adjust to modern day standards of the last 50 years.
 
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Altaican

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Botham definitely rates Viv as the greatest. I have seen Botham's interview (it is a BBC video of great cricketers including Botham, and might still be available) where he says something like "They say Sir Don was good, Sir Don was great but it is hard for me to believe he could have been any better than Viv.". Below is a link to another interview.

Botham - I regard [Viv Richards] as the best player who ever played cricket.

In the above interview, Botham pretty much tells the same thing that despite Bradman's freak stats, it is hard for him (Botham) to comprehend that Bradman was better than Viv. Not sure if this statement/interview was hyped. A lot of times, for the sake of grabbing public attention (and profit), Media usually highlights or hypes one particular statement, amongst many, made about a famous (or infamous) person by another famous person, and puts it out of context. Media feeds the public and the public fever, in return, feeds the media, like an out-of-control feedback system, and soon this larger-than-life image is created. Especially in countries like India where cricket is the only sport followed, and where sports media coverage is extensive. For example, during 1996-97 Tri-Series Down Under, Sir Don Bradman said Wasim Akram was the greatest left arm fast bowler ever. But Pakistani media wasn't extensive enough to catch the statement and hype it to the skies. Even the same person can say different things at different times depending on how the interviewer poses the question and the situation in which he is speaking.

In any case different cricketers have different opinions based on their own experiences. I haven't come across aggressive fast bowlers of the quality of Dennis Lillee, Imran Khan and Michael Holding appreciating a batsman as much as they appreciated Viv. Imran actually admits that his bouncers were useless against Viv (this is a first time I have heard any aggressive fast bowler of that standard say something like that.).

In his book - DENNIS ‘THE MENACE’ LILLEE (published in 2004), Dennis Lillee writes (rating Viv as the best batsman he has bowled at) - “For sheer ability to rip an attack apart, animal brutality and no fear in taking you on, I have to put Viv Richards on top of the list. I just loved bowling against the man. I enjoyed it because it was such a challenge and I regarded him as one of the supreme players if not the supreme player.

Holding and Marshall too has similar things to say about Viv, and put him as the second best batsman, in their opinion, after Lawrence Rowe.

Back in late 2005, there was a small cricket panel discussion between different cricket commentators (Tony Greig, Ian Chappell, Ravi Shastri and John Wright) as to who the best batsman of Tendulkar-Lara era was. Chappell, Shastri and Greig picked Lara while Wright picked both Lara and Tendulkar and said there was just no point in trying to pick one of these two, as they both belonged to a different league compared to the rest in their era.

In another panel involving Gavaskar, Harsha Bhogle and couple of others, exactly opposite happened.

As I said earlier, it is subjective. There are no absolutes. Everyone has the right to form their own opinion. It depends on what (or whom) they like to watch, and why they follow the sport itself.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Botham definitely rates Viv as the greatest. I have seen Botham's interview (it is a BBC video of great cricketers including Botham, and might still be available) where he says something like "They say Sir Don was good, Sir Don was great but it is hard for me to believe he could have been any better than Viv.". Below is a link to another interview.

Botham - I regard [Viv Richards] as the best player who ever played cricket.

In the above interview, Botham pretty much tells the same thing that despite Bradman's freak stats, it is hard for him (Botham) to comprehend that Bradman was better than Viv. Not sure if this statement/interview was hyped. A lot of times, for the sake of grabbing public attention (and profit), Media usually highlights or hypes one particular statement, amongst many, made about a famous (or infamous) person by another famous person, and puts it out of context. Media feeds the public and the public fever, in return, feeds the media, like an out-of-control feedback system, and soon this larger-than-life image is created. Especially in countries like India where cricket is the only sport followed, and where sports media coverage is extensive. For example, during 1996-97 Tri-Series Down Under, Sir Don Bradman said Wasim Akram was the greatest left arm fast bowler ever. But Pakistani media wasn't extensive enough to catch the statement and hype it to the skies. Even the same person can say different things at different times depending on how the interviewer poses the question and the situation in which he is speaking.

In any case different cricketers have different opinions based on their own experiences. I haven't come across aggressive fast bowlers of the quality of Dennis Lillee, Imran Khan and Michael Holding appreciating a batsman as much as they appreciated Viv. Imran actually admits that his bouncers were useless against Viv (this is a first time I have heard any aggressive fast bowler of that standard say something like that.).

In his book - DENNIS ‘THE MENACE’ LILLEE (published in 2004), Dennis Lillee writes (rating Viv as the best batsman he has bowled at) - “For sheer ability to rip an attack apart, animal brutality and no fear in taking you on, I have to put Viv Richards on top of the list. I just loved bowling against the man. I enjoyed it because it was such a challenge and I regarded him as one of the supreme players if not the supreme player.

Holding and Marshall too has similar things to say about Viv, and put him as the second best batsman, in their opinion, after Lawrence Rowe.

Back in late 2005, there was a small cricket panel discussion between different cricket commentators (Tony Greig, Ian Chappell, Ravi Shastri and John Wright) as to who the best batsman of Tendulkar-Lara era was. Chappell, Shastri and Greig picked Lara while Wright picked both Lara and Tendulkar and said there was just no point in trying to pick one of these two, as they both belonged to a different league compared to the rest in their era.

In another panel involving Gavaskar, Harsha Bhogle and couple of others, exactly opposite happened.

As I said earlier, it is subjective. There are no absolutes. Everyone has the right to form their own opinion. It depends on what (or whom) they like to watch, and why they follow the sport itself.

Wow. One of the best tributes from one all time great to another. That man Imran does not have too much praise for others. But his admiration for Viv comes out forth very well in this article. Great article. Imran probably had one of the best in-swingers ever seen in the game and he mentions that his in-swinger (his best delivery) was ineffective against Richards. Now that is something.

And high praise indeed from Dennis Lillee too. Arguable the greatest fast bowler ever.

Reading these accounts I feel that Viv can hardly be over rated.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
In depends what you picking that all-time XI for. If its a wall of fame XI to hang or your wall, then the likes of Trumper, Barnes etc would be given their record & impact on the game.

But if its a hypotetical match-up where you are putting them to face some of the greatest bowlers & all-time (Trumper) & batsman who would be free from the unfair advantage of batting on uncovered wickets (Barnes, Johhny Blythe etc). Then pre-war (1900-1939) players cannot be compared to post war (1945-1990) players given they played totally different era of cricket, when the trends & styles of cricket was different. Such players become immediate achillies heels to your teams, since it would extremely naive to expect them to do well, againts bowlers (90 mph, reverse-swing bowlers) or batsman who didn't have to deal with uncovered wickets, who they never played againts during their careers.

A bowler like Derek Underwood, lost ALOT of effectiveness (although he was still very good) in the 70s when uncovered wickets basically ceased to exist. That in itself proves how diffcult in a hypotetical ATXI match it would be for the likes of Barnes etc to adjust to modern day standards of the last 50 years.
All that assumes that a hypothetical match wouldn't be played on an uncovered wicket.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
I believed with had this debate with you before & this is the usual weak defense that is given to defend modern day FTBs. I wont argue with this, since their is no middle-ground is the argument before, just strong ideological gridlock.

Although an educated assumption, you can judge whether batsman X of this FTB era would have been able to average Y (whether higher or lower) in the 90s. Based on the few on 90s like scenario's (difficult batting conditions vs top quality pacers) that batsman X would have encountered in this just 2000s era.

If batsman X does well in those 90s like scenario just has well as the amount runs he would smoke of the majority of flat decks & joke attacks that he would have faced in this 2000s. That is very fair guide IMO to how well batsman X would have done average wise in a past difficult batting era's vs quality pace attacks (50s - 80s as well as the 90s).
I have no intention of debating this with you again on any level tbh. Been there, done that. :p
 

smash84

The Tiger King
I posted this article in Sachin Vs .... Thread because I was quoting Imran on him.....

however after reading the article closely I realized that it probably belonged here.....

Tendulkar not a match-winner: Imran Khan
Also to be fair Viv Richards rates Ponting and Sachin as the best of the lot these days

from cricinfo

"Richards picked Test cricket's two highest run-getters - Sachin Tendulkar and Ricky Ponting - as his top batsmen in the game. "Ricky Ponting is the most aggressive for me. I have always liked his aggression. But the role Sachin is playing for India, that's batsmanship at its very best for me. The things Sachin is doing now and the way he did them in the past, are two completely different chapters in his career.""

For the full article

West Indies board ostracising former players - Viv Richards | Cricket News | Global | Cricinfo.com
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
All that assumes that a hypothetical match wouldn't be played on an uncovered wicket.
Hypotetical ATXI match-ups should not be played on uncovered wickets at all. Their is reason they have been abolished.


I have no intention of debating this with you again on any level tbh. Been there, done that.
Ha well thats unfortunate. All we dont agree on much, i reckon you are one of the few on this site i can have a sane discussion about this issue.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Back in late 2005, there was a small cricket panel discussion between different cricket commentators (Tony Greig, Ian Chappell, Ravi Shastri and John Wright) as to who the best batsman of Tendulkar-Lara era was. Chappell, Shastri and Greig picked Lara while Wright picked both Lara and Tendulkar and said there was just no point in trying to pick one of these two, as they both belonged to a different league compared to the rest in their era.
Interesting bit in that panel discussion for me is how profuse those guys are in their praise for Barry Richards and Graeme Pollock. It's such a tragedy that they lost their best years due to SA's isolation.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
I am an Indian and I love Sachin Tendulkar. The only reason I watch any T-20 cricket at all is to see Sachin bat - he gets out and I switch off the TV.

I have been watching international cricket for fifty years. Sachin is not the greatest batsman I have seen - Sobers is.

Sachin is not even the greatest right handed batsman I have seen. Viv Richards takes that spot.

That, of course, is just my opinion and does not automatically qualify as fact.

I do not take into account longevity of the cricketer. In my opinion if a cricketer has played ten years of international cricket that is long enough. More than that depends on various factors which do not prove a cricketer better or worse based on the fact that he was scoring hundreds twenty years after his debut.

All great cricketers of the past have to be remembered and recalled at their best, not their best innings or series but their best period - their prime.

Richards at his prime was quite something else.

Saying all that I have said does not berate Sachin Tendulkar for he is one of the greatest batsmen of all time - perhaps amongst the half a dozen greatest the game has seen. That is not something to be scoffed at for a game with nearly a century and a half of cricketing history. If someone says Richards was a better batsman than Tendulkar it does not mean Sachin Tendulkar is not one of the greatest cricketers of all time and the same is true in reverse if someone said Tendulkar was better.

I would not have much of a problem with anyone who felt Sachin is better than Richards ever was because I realise we are talking of two of the greatest right handed batsmen the game has seen. The differences are immaterial - but to claim that Richards (or Tendulkar for that matter) is over rated is to show distinct lack of appreciation of quality and class and leaves a distinct after-scent of bias and worse.
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
I am an Indian and I love Sachin Tendulkar. The only reason I watch any T-20 cricket at all is to see Sachin bat - he gets out and I switch off the TV.

I have been watching international cricket for fifty years. Sachin is not the greatest batsman I have seen - Sobers is.

Sachin is not even the greatest right handed batsman I have seen. Viv Richards takes that spot.

That, of course, is just my opinion.


I do not take into account longevity of the cricketer. In my opinion if a cricketer has played ten years of international cricket that is long enough. More than that depends on various factors which do not prove a cricketer better or worse based on the fact that he was scoring hundreds twenty years after his debut.

All great cricketers of the past have to be remembered and recalled at their best, not their best innings or series but their best period - their prime.

Richards at his prime was quite something else.

Saying all that I have said does not berate Sachin Tendulkar for he is one of the greatest batsmen of all time - perhaps amongst the half a dozen greatest the game has seen. That is not something to be scoffed at for 1 game with nearly a century and a half of cricketing history. If someone says richards was a better batsman than Tendulkar it does not mean Sachin Tendulkar is not one of the greatest cricketers of all time and the same is true in reverse if someone said Tendulkar was better.

I would not have much of a problem with anyone who felt Sachin is better than Richards ever was because I realise we are talking of two of the greatest right handed batsmen the game has seen. The differences are immaterial - but to claim that Richards (or Tendulkar for that matter) is over rated is to show distinct lack of appreciation of quality and class and leaves a distinct after-scent of bias and worse.
An opinion that every old erudite cricket fan that i have spoken to, who has had the luxury of seeing both Tendy & Richards in their prime share as well.
 

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
An opinion that every old erudite cricket fan that i have spoken to, who has had the luxury of seeing both Tendy & Richards in their prime share as well.
I know you haven't spoken to Donald Bradman or Richie Benaud, to name two...
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
"....... no one has batted better in my time of watching cricket"

Benaud on Richards - writing in 1995 mind - I suppose he may have revised his opinion since
 

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
Yes, he most definitely has...now he rates Tendulkar above anyone who has batted after Bradman (that includes Sobers, too)...
 

Black_Warrior

Cricketer Of The Year
I posted this article in Sachin Vs .... Thread because I was quoting Imran on him.....

however after reading the article closely I realized that it probably belonged here.....

Tendulkar not a match-winner: Imran Khan
He said that a long time ago...
Last year when Sachin completed 20 years he wrote a short piece on him showering him with praise.. He had always said Inzamam was in the same league in terms of talent but in his last piece he acknowledged that Tendulkar had left him and his contemporaries behind.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
He said that a long time ago...
Last year when Sachin completed 20 years he wrote a short piece on him showering him with praise.. He had always said Inzamam was in the same league in terms of talent but in his last piece he acknowledged that Tendulkar had left him and his contemporaries behind.
Oh. My bad. I did not come across this one.

By the way do you by any chance have a link to that piece?
 

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