Harbhajan reignites racism storm

[shankar]

I, for one, do not separate racists from guys who merely say racists things. If you say it, that's who you are. Harbhajan, Lehmann, Gibbs etc are all racists as far as I'm concerned. To what degree they harbor those feelings in their everyday lives is another matter.

If he did say it - I don't think Harby is a racist nor that he thinks he's superior to other races, I don't think Lehmann is one either. Nor Michael Richards for that matter. But racial vilification is unacceptable and should not be tolerated, regardless of the specific thought process behind the person saying it.

AWTA. The issue is that racist comments aren't borne out of pure racism as such - but out of ignorance, a much more common affliction. What some Indian fans and Harbhajan have taken umbrage to is that we're accusing them of systematic racism. We're not. We're accusing them of being ignorant enough to fail to recognise that words that bear racist connotation might be construed as offensive elsewhere in the world.

What you're all saying above is that Harbhajan (and the crowds) may not said what he did (allegedly) out of a confirmed belief in his superiority, but he did say it because of Symonds' race. My point is that Harbhajan's experience is also different from that of Michael Richards both of whom may have not had racist beliefs but clearly used race as a weapon. In Harbhajan's case I'm saying that Symonds' race was irrelevent. What was relevant is that he knew that it would hurt Symonds the way Symonds' words hurt him.

 

[pasag]

Be as it may, try enforcing this('monkey') in a schoolyard. You are bound to fail.


But the Australian team have always maintained that they sledge, they don't abuse and they know the unwritten line in the sand. Try convincing them otherwise.

While I feel that there is no place for sledging in sport, I am also acutely aware that the world we live in is warped and nothing is going to remove sledging from cricket. All that can be done is to have some solid laws regarding racism. But if there is a 5,000 page list of racist slurs then you can forget that as well

I didn't say make a 5000 page list, I said education into different cultures as to what is acceptable and what is not, what offends and what doesn't. Harmless sledging is fine, like Sangas to Pollock. Abuse is not. The Australian team should be the very first to take note and tbh, I think they have as we saw from the remaining two Tests. But we'll see in the future.

And yes, ensuring black kids aren't called monkey by the other kids should be enforced to the fullest extent in the school yard.

 

[sirdj]

Doesn't really matter what the reason was, it was the second time that allegedly happened from the player and had happened a couple of times previously from the crowd. To claim this final time could have been as the result of anything other then a racial slur is reaching. If the only black man in the side was called a monkey numerous times it's pretty simple as to what is going on. Especially after it was explained to the person and a big deal made previously.

I refuse to talk about harbhajan any more...........only about monkeys

And again, eradicating racial slurs like this is not trivialising racism but the route to its cure. Obviously no one is saying that the word monkey should be banned from the playing field but in a certain context

Once you deem a word racist you will have to swallow the whole hog. You cant say that it applies here but it does not apply there. Such a law will never be enforceable & will be thrown out at the first instance.

 

[sirdj]

I didn't say make a 5000 page list, I said education into different cultures as to what is acceptable and what is not, what offends and what doesn't. Harmless sledging is fine, like Sangas to Pollock. Abuse is not. The Australian team should be the very first to take note and tbh, I think they have as we saw from the remaining two Tests. But we'll see in the future.

Do you wanna bet your avataar that it will not be a 5000 page document??

 

[pasag]

What you're all saying above is that Harbhajan (and the crowds) may not said what he did (allegedly) out of a confirmed belief in his superiority, but he did say it because of Symonds' race. My point is that Harbhajan's experience is also different from that of Michael Richards both of whom may have not had racist beliefs but clearly used race as a weapon. In Harbhajan's case I'm saying that Symonds' race was irrelevent. What was relevant is that he knew that it would hurt Symonds the way Symonds' words hurt him.

Yeah as I said, I don't think Harby is a racist even if he said it but the words are still racial slurs, despite his stupidity and it shouldn't be tolerated. I'm not saying ban him for life, I am saying however that it is unacceptable and a couple match ban would be appropriate as such things should not be accpeted anywhere, regardless of the intent behind it being not as sinister as it could be. Gibbs is very much the same in my book.

 

[shankar]

Yeah as I said, I don't think Harby is a racist even if he said it but the words are still racial slurs, despite his stupidity and it shouldn't be tolerated.

You have to be careful about what you mean when you say racial slurs. If you simply mean words which hurt Symonds because of his race that's fine. But if you say Symonds race played a bigger part in Harbhajan saying it than Harbhajan's knowledge of the word as simply a word that will hurt Symonds. If it's the former, then you're simply making an example of Harbhajan for something done by players regularly.

 

[pasag]

Once you deem a word racist you will have to swallow the whole hog. You cant say that it applies here but it does not apply there. Such a law will never be enforceable & will be thrown out at the first instance.

That's not true, it's all about the context and takes common sense to know when it is acceptable and when it is not. Calling a black man a monkey is not on, using it in most other contexts is fine. There are plenty of other slurs that in one context they are fine and in another they are deeply offensive.

 

[pasag]

You have to be careful about what you mean when you say racial slurs. If you simply mean words which hurt Symonds because of his race that's fine. But if you say Symonds race played a bigger part in Harbhajan saying it than Harbhajan's knowledge of the word as simply a word that will hurt Symonds. If it's the former, then you're simply making an example of Harbhajan for something done by players regularly.

Yeah, I have no qualms with saying that Harby is the final product of what has occurred regularly in the past and this is the monster that has been created from the battlefield mentality. If you create an atmosphere of abuse on the field, eventually the line will be crossed and Australia are very much indirectly to blame for this. That doesn't make what he allegedly said acceptable though.

 

[RhyZa]

Why did Symonds take offense to Harby patting Lee on the back?

I know he hates the guy but c'mon. I'm not blaming the alleged victim either but sheesh, lighten up.

 

[pasag]

Do you wanna bet your avataar that it will not be a 5000 page document??

There wont be any document because nothing will be done. This will just simmer under the surface until history repeats itself in a few years because there is very little meaningful attempt to bridge the divide between east and west.

 

[silentstriker]

Why did Symonds take offense to Harby patting Lee on the back?

I know he hates the guy but c'mon. I'm not blaming the alleged victim either but sheesh, lighten up.

He said a Test is not a time to be friendly and congratulate your opponent on a delivery well bowled, apparently. My worst bloke ever sig continues to be vindicated.

Though, Harbhajan has now moved into 1st place with the lowest IQ to talent ratio, well ahead of Sreesanth.

 

[RhyZa]

He said a Test is not a time to be friendly and congratulate your opponent on a delivery well bowled, apparently. My worst bloke ever sig continues to be vindicated.

Though, Harbhajan has now moved into 1st place with the lowest IQ to talent ratio, well ahead of Sreesanth.

in agreement.

 

[RhyZa]

But in all seriousness, now that I think about it, that shouldn't be overlooked.

They had a pact to put whatever happened behind them, and then Symonds does something like that after Harby tries to display good sportsmanship. I think that is a very insidious way to instigate and provoke someone to react. I think the judge ruled right on that part at least.

 

[Jono]

Why did Symonds take offense to Harby patting Lee on the back?

I know he hates the guy but c'mon. I'm not blaming the alleged victim either but sheesh, lighten up.

Because he's a jackass.

Harbhajan was wrong to use the word monkey (if he did it, which I reckon he probably did), but Symonds is just as much a dickhead.

Did you read Symonds' statement in the appeal? Something along the lines of this is test cricket and it shouldn't be friendly.

FFS he's a dick, just like Harbhajan.

 

[Fusion]

I, for one, do not separate racists from guys who merely say racists things. If you say it, that's who you are. Harbhajan, Lehmann, Gibbs etc are all racists as far as I'm concerned. To what degree they harbor those feelings in their everyday lives is another matter.

Yeah as I said, I don't think Harby is a racist even if he said it but the words are still racial slurs, despite his stupidity and it shouldn't be tolerated. I'm not saying ban him for life, I am saying however that it is unacceptable and a couple match ban would be appropriate as such things should not be accpeted anywhere, regardless of the intent behind it being not as sinister as it could be. Gibbs is very much the same in my book.

I tend to agree more with Pasag here. I think it's possible for someone to make a one-off, in the heat of the moment racist comment, without really believing those racist thoughts. I think people can do/say extremely stupid things when they're mad. I believe that's what happened with Harby. However, even if he's not a racist, if he used that term against Symonds than he intended to hurt him with a racist slang. He deserved punishment just like Gibbs etc. I've said before though that there wasn't sufficient evidence to convict him, even though I personally believe he did say it.

 

[social]

Because he's a jackass.

Harbhajan was wrong to use the word monkey (if he did it, which I reckon he probably did), but Symonds is just as much a dickhead.

Did you read Symonds' statement in the appeal? Something along the lines of this is test cricket and it shouldn't be friendly.

FFS he's a dick, just like Harbhajan.

Symonds was one of the few that emerged with any credit.

Like him or hate him, at least he was honest the whole way through

Test cricket is not a friendly sport - Harby did not simply pat Brett Lee and say "well bowled", you can absolutely guarantee that

The judge's response was that of a person living in pixie-land

 

[silentstriker]

Test cricket is not a friendly sport - Harby did not simply pat Brett Lee and say "well bowled", you can absolutely guarantee that

Why?


That was probably picked up on the stump mic, I would think.

 

[social]

Why?


That was probably picked up on the stump mic, I would think.

How many times do you see even the most honourable players acknowledge a good delivery?

Virtually never

Sorry, but I'm a total cynic where that is concerned

Harby almost certainly acted like a smart-arse, Symonds gave him a gobful, Harby responded - the rest is history

 

[RhyZa]

How many times do you see even the most honourable players acknowledge a good delivery?

Virtually never

Sorry, but I'm a total cynic where that is concerned

Harby almost certainly acted like a smart-arse, Symonds gave him a gobful, Harby responded - the rest is history

Why didn't Symonds refer to this instead of saying tests aren't intended to be friendly if this was the case?

 

[silentstriker]

How many times do you see even the most honourable players acknowledge a good delivery?

Virtually never

Sorry, but I'm a total cynic where that is concerned

Harby almost certainly acted like a smart-arse, Symonds gave him a gobful, Harby responded - the rest is history

Even Sreesanth said 'Good Shot' to Lee in an ODI when he hit him through the covers. And this is Sreesanth - the antithesis of all intelligence that we're talking about!