Fringe Aussie fringe Players who would excel in other teams..

[Zinzan]

really? even though gilchrist came in and hammered 118 after that and of course of all players brett lee hammered 61! not to mention of course that both warne and gillespie got 20s. just because the middle order collapsed, it doesnt mean that it was seamer friendly. and the fact that NZ absolutely hammered australia in the 4th inning scoring at 4.8 runs an over only emphasises that the pitch was flat. not to mention of course that not one side managed to dismiss the other side in any of the innings.

Did u watch the game ?? Or r you just making assumptions from the scorecard. The Latter I think.

I watched all 5 days ball by ball of that Match, and can assure you the first 2 days the pitch was seaming (particularly the first session day 1). Admittedly it did (like most pitches) flatten out as the test went on.

You may also notice that the seamers from both sides took all the wickets in the first innings....Warne only took a couple on day 5.

 

[tooextracool]

Did u watch the game ?? Or r you just making assumptions from the scorecard. The Latter I think.

I watched all 5 days ball by ball of that Match, and can assure you the first 2 days the pitch was seaming (particularly the first session day 1). Admittedly it did (like most pitches) flatten out as the test went on.

You may also notice that the seamers from both sides took all the wickets in the first innings....Warne only took a couple on day 5.

rubbish, yes i watched every day of that entire series. and i can assure you that while the pitch had a lot of moisture and the conditions were overcast, the pitch didnt assist the bowlers in any way at all. in fact if it werent for some poor middle order batting- and it was against the medium pace of mcmillan and astle, neither of whom are particularly brilliant bowlers, australia would have got over 600 quite comfortably.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

ive done it a million times before. nonetheless i will give you every occasion on which hayden came across a seamer friendly wicket since his return.
the 2nd, 3rd and 4th test of the series in england in 01, durban 02, antigua(1st inning)
and cairns vs SL.

So your claim then is that he has played on seaming tracks... six times? If they are the only pitches you consider "seaming" in his entire career it hardly seems like a weakness at all. Frankly, your definition of seaming is so obviously "a wicket Hayden failed on" that it hardly seems worthwhile providing examples at all.

 

[Zinzan]

rubbish, yes i watched every day of that entire series. and i can assure you that while the pitch had a lot of moisture and the conditions were overcast, the pitch didnt assist the bowlers in any way at all. in fact if it werent for some poor middle order batting- and it was against the medium pace of mcmillan and astle, neither of whom are particularly brilliant bowlers, australia would have got over 600 quite comfortably.

6 innings out of 112 innings?? about as conclusive as pigs in space. 5% of his test innings you claim were on "seaming wickets".

Interesting in looking at his test record on Australian grounds and other grounds where he has played more than 1 test (I've left out india - unless you've decided there are seaming wickets there)

Adelaide Oval (Aus) [Ground Page]
6 10 0 558 131 125 70 55.80 2 3 0

Melbourne Cricket Ground (Aus) [Ground Page]
6 12 3 546 138 136 102 60.66 3 2 1

Sydney Cricket Ground (Aus) [Ground Page]
6 12 3 418 105 101* 67 46.44 2 1 0

Bundaberg Rum Stadium, Cairns (Aus) [Ground Page]
2 3 0 299 132 117 50 99.66 2 1 0

Marrara Cricket Ground, Darwin (Aus) [Ground Page]
2 3 0 50 37 11 2 16.66 0 0 0

W.A.C.A. Ground, Perth (Aus) [Ground Page]
6 9 0 597 380 69 57 66.33 1 2 2

New Wanderers Stadium, Johannesburg (SA) [Ground Page]
3 4 0 182 122 40 15 45.50 1 0 0

Brisbane Cricket Ground, Woolloongabba, Brisbane (Aus) [Ground Page]
5 8 0 637 197 136 103 79.62 3 1 0


From the above I suppose you will suggest that Marrara is a seamers ground for its the only ground he has really failed.

Interesting for me is that of the "big" Australian Venues, its Sydney that has seen him struggle the most and thats long been regarded as a spinners track.

Are you suggesting none of those pitches have been suitable for seamers over the years?? What about Jo-berg??

The above may not be absolutely conclusive, but is certainly more conclusive than you finding 6 instances out of 112 innings where Hayden has failed and then claiming these are the only seaming conditions he's played on.

Back to the drawing board big fella..

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

What a terrible average he has on the renowned seamers track at the Gabba, too.

Anyway, with likely seamer's tracks coming up in New Zealand and England it will be interesting to see how Hayden goes. 16 failures in 8 tests, no doubt.

 

[Zinzan]

What a terrible average he has on the renowned seamers track at the Gabba, too.

Anyway, with likely seamer's tracks coming up in New Zealand and England it will be interesting to see how Hayden goes. 16 failures in 8 tests, no doubt.

Yes, but remember (in TEC's world)the nature of these pitches will be determined only after hayden has completed his innings. Wellington might turn into a spinners paradise if Hayden scores a hundred and Eden park (Auckland) a seamers paradise if hayden fails.

 

[tooextracool]

So your claim then is that he has played on seaming tracks... six times? If they are the only pitches you consider "seaming" in his entire career it hardly seems like a weakness at all. Frankly, your definition of seaming is so obviously "a wicket Hayden failed on" that it hardly seems worthwhile providing examples at all.

did you watch any of those 6 games?
i can assure you if you did, that you would know for certain that every one of them were seaming tracks.

 

[tooextracool]

6 innings out of 112 innings?? about as conclusive as pigs in space. 5% of his test innings you claim were on "seaming wickets".

Interesting in looking at his test record on Australian grounds and other grounds where he has played more than 1 test (I've left out india - unless you've decided there are seaming wickets there)

Adelaide Oval (Aus) [Ground Page]
6 10 0 558 131 125 70 55.80 2 3 0

Melbourne Cricket Ground (Aus) [Ground Page]
6 12 3 546 138 136 102 60.66 3 2 1

Sydney Cricket Ground (Aus) [Ground Page]
6 12 3 418 105 101* 67 46.44 2 1 0

Bundaberg Rum Stadium, Cairns (Aus) [Ground Page]
2 3 0 299 132 117 50 99.66 2 1 0

Marrara Cricket Ground, Darwin (Aus) [Ground Page]
2 3 0 50 37 11 2 16.66 0 0 0

W.A.C.A. Ground, Perth (Aus) [Ground Page]
6 9 0 597 380 69 57 66.33 1 2 2

New Wanderers Stadium, Johannesburg (SA) [Ground Page]
3 4 0 182 122 40 15 45.50 1 0 0

Brisbane Cricket Ground, Woolloongabba, Brisbane (Aus) [Ground Page]
5 8 0 637 197 136 103 79.62 3 1 0


From the above I suppose you will suggest that Marrara is a seamers ground for its the only ground he has really failed.

Interesting for me is that of the "big" Australian Venues, its Sydney that has seen him struggle the most and thats long been regarded as a spinners track.

Are you suggesting none of those pitches have been suitable for seamers over the years?? What about Jo-berg??

The above may not be absolutely conclusive, but is certainly more conclusive than you finding 6 instances out of 112 innings where Hayden has failed and then claiming these are the only seaming conditions he's played on.

Back to the drawing board big fella..

what is your point here? to simply steretypify every ground as being either seamer friend or not is quite frankly the stupidest thing ive ever heard. its about as stupid as saying that every headingly wicket offers seam and swing movement or every perth wicket has pace or bounce. ive suggested 1 million times already that off late most wickets in australia have been the flattest wickets around the world. the fact that you couldnt find a single inning in his entire carreer where he has succeeded on seamer friendly wickets and had to use his overall average on different grounds to try and prove me wrong says how desperate your claim really is.

 

[tooextracool]

Yes, but remember (in TEC's world)the nature of these pitches will be determined only after hayden has completed his innings. Wellington might turn into a spinners paradise if Hayden scores a hundred and Eden park (Auckland) a seamers paradise if hayden fails.

please, just watch all the games and let me hear you say the same thing again. im pretty sure if you looked up match reports about the game, they will clearly state the conditions for the games hes played in too.

 

[tooextracool]

What a terrible average he has on the renowned seamers track at the Gabba, too.)

what is with this renowned 'seamers' track rubbish? how many times do i have to say that you cant stereotype tracks to be solely seamer friendly and never batter friendly. not to mention of course if you look at the number of runs that have been scored at brisbane in the last few years, you'd more than get the point.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

did you watch any of those 6 games?
i can assure you if you did, that you would know for certain that every one of them were seaming tracks.

I watched all of them except for Durban '02. Really though, I'm not claiming there was not assistance for the seamers in the games that you mentioned, or that Hayden never fails when there is assistance for seamers. The ludicrous thing about your claim is that you think that Hayden only plays on a seaming track in roughly 5% of his innings, and strangely enough all the games you pick out as examples are ones where he failed.

what is with this renowned 'seamers' track rubbish? how many times do i have to say that you cant stereotype tracks to be solely seamer friendly and never batter friendly. not to mention of course if you look at the number of runs that have been scored at brisbane in the last few years, you'd more than get the point.

No, obviously a pitch can vary from one year or one match to another, but it is absolutely obvious to anyone who watches a significant amount of cricket that pitches usually trend in one direction or another. Not every Sydney wicket turns (it didn't turn in '03 against India, for example), but certainly the SCG pitch turns the vast majority of the time, and I cannot think of any other instance in a test match in the last decade where it hasn't. It is absolutely and without question the most spin-friendly deck in Australia. Similarly, Perth usually offers pace and bounce. That doesn't mean there will never ever be a flat Perth wicket, but you can assume that if someone has been successful in Perth over a long period of time and played dozens of matches there they don't have a major problem playing on fast and bouncy decks, like for instance Damien Martyn and Justin Langer. If someone plays and is successful regularly at Headingly you can assume they can handle playing in conditions conducive to seam bowling, whether or not every single Headingly pitch is seamer friendly or not. The same could be true of Kandy and slow, dusty turners, and the same is true of the Gabba and seaming green tops.

 

[Zinzan]

what is your point here? to simply steretypify every ground as being either seamer friend or not is quite frankly the stupidest thing ive ever heard. its about as stupid as saying that every headingly wicket offers seam and swing movement or every perth wicket has pace or bounce. ive suggested 1 million times already that off late most wickets in australia have been the flattest wickets around the world. the fact that you couldnt find a single inning in his entire carreer where he has succeeded on seamer friendly wickets and had to use his overall average on different grounds to try and prove me wrong says how desperate your claim really is.

I'm not stereotyping the wickets at all, I'm simply providing the stats of the major grounds Hayden has played on and then asking YOU the question ...."Have any of the above wickets been (according to you) a seaming track?? Don't be such a baby

 

[tooextracool]

even though ive already stated every seamer friendly wicket that hes played on since the tour of india 00/01. i didnt get to watch much of the WI series, which was his first series on his return, so i wont comment on that series.

 

[tooextracool]

I watched all of them except for Durban '02. Really though, I'm not claiming there was not assistance for the seamers in the games that you mentioned, or that Hayden never fails when there is assistance for seamers. The ludicrous thing about your claim is that you think that Hayden only plays on a seaming track in roughly 5% of his innings, and strangely enough all the games you pick out as examples are ones where he failed..

strangely? that is precisely my point, hes never succeeded on a seamer friendly wicket, had he done so i wouldnt be bringing this up ITFP. dont you think if i were manipulating stats, that i would have brought his failures against pakistan in the recent series up?
or some of the other complete failures hes had in tests.
and why is it impossible for someone to have played only 5%(even though its actually more than 5%), on seamer friendly wickets. ive said many times that its a rare phenomenon, but its something that has happened, and its something that might continue to happen if pitches in australia remain as flat as they are, and pitches worldwide get flatter.

No, obviously a pitch can vary from one year or one match to another, but it is absolutely obvious to anyone who watches a significant amount of cricket that pitches usually trend in one direction or another. Not every Sydney wicket turns (it didn't turn in '03 against India, for example), but certainly the SCG pitch turns the vast majority of the time, and I cannot think of any other instance in a test match in the last decade where it hasn't. It is absolutely and without question the most spin-friendly deck in Australia. Similarly, Perth usually offers pace and bounce. That doesn't mean there will never ever be a flat Perth wicket, but you can assume that if someone has been successful in Perth over a long period of time and played dozens of matches there they don't have a major problem playing on fast and bouncy decks, like for instance Damien Martyn and Justin Langer. If someone plays and is successful regularly at Headingly you can assume they can handle playing in conditions conducive to seam bowling, whether or not every single Headingly pitch is seamer friendly or not. The same could be true of Kandy and slow, dusty turners, and the same is true of the Gabba and seaming green tops.

to say that the gabba is a 'green top' is quite frankly the stupidest claim ive ever heard. i'll give you that the gabba has more life in it than most of the other wickets in australia, and i'll give you that occasionally it has a green tinge that lasts for about a session. but a green top?? please this isnt the jokes section. lets just touch on the few games that hayden has played at the gabba. vs NZ, not a single team was dismissed NZ in fact hammered australia at 4.8 runs an over in the final inning(an even mark richardson of all people hammered 59 off 67!!). vs england 2002 - hussain has been widely criticised for putting australia in on the flattest wicket possible, australia were 339/1 at one stage and england too were 268/3, all the top 5 batsman got starts( 4 got 50s). so both sides collapsed rather than any excellent bowling from either side. in the 4th inning, the cracks opened up, australia bowled well, england batted extremely poorly and tried to take on the aussie bowlers- because they thought that that was what worked against mcgrath, warne and gillespie and were dimissed for 79. vs india 2003- there was a session in between the showers where the ball move around quite a bit, which was the same session in which australia completely collapsed. however on the whole it was still flat, and that was emphasised by the fact that india got 409 and australia getting 284/3 with 4 out of the 5 batsmen getting 50s. vs NZ 2004, was primarily a flat wicket, but hayden failed anyways so we dont really need to discuss it.

 

[Zinzan]

The same could be true of Kandy and slow, dusty turners, and the same is true of the Gabba and seaming green tops.

[/QUOTE]

Well if the same can be said for the Gabba ( which you've suggested as generally a seaming/greentop if not always) then plse explain Hayden's fantastic record there(averging nearly 80).

Your right that it is more than 5%. From the evidence you've given of 6 out of 112 innings its actually 5.4 %. If you believe that its reasonable to expect that this is possible that only 5.4% of innings are played on seaming tracks (i personally think its higher) then Hayden hardly has a weakness at all.

5.4 % is hardly a higher enough percentage to suggest someone has a significant weakness does it??

 

[tooextracool]

Well if the same can be said for the Gabba ( which you've suggested as generally a seaming/greentop if not always) then plse explain Hayden's fantastic record there(averging nearly 80).

if you notice carefully, you'll see that that was a statement made in the post above mine, something i forgot to touch on(which i will in a minute). so that clearly isnt one of my claims.

Your right that it is more than 5%. From the evidence you've given of 6 out of 112 innings its actually 5.4 %. If you believe that its reasonable to expect that this is possible that only 5.4% of innings are played on seaming tracks (i personally think its higher) then Hayden hardly has a weakness at all.

5.4 % is hardly a higher enough percentage to suggest someone has a significant weakness does it??

you missed out a lot of my post didnt you?
first of all i said since tour of india 2000/01, because i think we can say fairly safely that since his return hayden has been a much better player. unless of course you want to look at haydens performances on seamers prior to that, which will only hurt your claim even more. i missed out the series in NZ in 00 where he came across a seamers paradise in the 3rd test and failed miserably yet again. the series in the WI where i barely watch much other than the perth test, so ive ignored that too. so for hayden's convenience i've looked at his record since the tour of india, because i know people like you would say that he was nowhere near the player he was before the series(even though it was after his return) in india as he was after. so that cuts 22 innings of his career already. so we're down to 90 innings. bangladesh and zimbabwe dont count so we're down to 85.
now what you also failed to touch on, was that i mentioned 6 tests, not 6 innings, which is completely different story. so we have 2 innings at lords+ 2 at trent bridge + 2 at headingly + 2 at durban + 1 at antigua + 2 at cairns. which adds up to 11 innings. so since the tour of india hes played on about 13% seaming wickets, which while still not a lot, is still considerably more than 5%. throw in the game in NZ and a couple of series against the WI and that adds up.

 

[Zinzan]

if you notice carefully, you'll see that that was a statement made in the post above mine, something i forgot to touch on(which i will in a minute). so that clearly isnt one of my claims.



you missed out a lot of my post didnt you?
first of all i said since tour of india 2000/01, because i think we can say fairly safely that since his return hayden has been a much better player. unless of course you want to look at haydens performances on seamers prior to that, which will only hurt your claim even more. i missed out the series in NZ in 00 where he came across a seamers paradise in the 3rd test and failed miserably yet again. the series in the WI where i barely watch much other than the perth test, so ive ignored that too. so for hayden's convenience i've looked at his record since the tour of india, because i know people like you would say that he was nowhere near the player he was before the series(even though it was after his return) in india as he was after. so that cuts 22 innings of his career already. so we're down to 90 innings. bangladesh and zimbabwe dont count so we're down to 85.
now what you also failed to touch on, was that i mentioned 6 tests, not 6 innings, which is completely different story. so we have 2 innings at lords+ 2 at trent bridge + 2 at headingly + 2 at durban + 1 at antigua + 2 at cairns. which adds up to 11 innings. so since the tour of india hes played on about 13% seaming wickets, which while still not a lot, is still considerably more than 5%. throw in the game in NZ and a couple of series against the WI and that adds up.

Twice at Cairns? What a joke !!!. You really are your own worst enemy, aren't you!

He has only played two tests there. One was against Sri lanka where he got a hundred in each innings (hardly a struggle ), and the other he got 50 against those great seamers from Bangladesh in his only innings.

So can you please alert me to the 2 innings at Cairns your referring to??

You really should get your facts right, it was a weak enough claim in the first place.

Finally question....Why does hardly anybody else agree with this theory??

 

[tooextracool]

you know i meant darwin,cairns was a contendor for flattest pitch of the year. well done in ignoring the rest of my post though.
and while not many people have agreed with my theory, several have taken it into contention, most of whom know that hayden has shown visible weaknesses against seam and swing. of course he may very well improve against it, but it doesnt change the fact that until now hes been miserable on any (even slightly)seamer friendly wicket

 

[Zinzan]

you know i meant darwin,cairns was a contendor for flattest pitch of the year. well done in ignoring the rest of my post though.
and while not many people have agreed with my theory, several have taken it into contention, most of whom know that hayden has shown visible weaknesses against seam and swing. of course he may very well improve against it, but it doesnt change the fact that until now hes been miserable on any (even slightly)seamer friendly wicket

I don't know what you mean at all. You've totally lost me with what is fast becoming a paper-thin and inconclusive claim.

I see above you mention his weakness against "seam and swing". So your including swing now? Previously it was a weakness on "seaming wickets" according to you, now your including swing as well??

The guy is the most successful test opener for decades and your now suggesting he has a weakness against not only "seam", but now also swing??

 

[tooextracool]

I don't know what you mean at all. You've totally lost me with what is fast becoming a paper-thin and inconclusive claim.

I see above you mention his weakness against "seam and swing". So your including swing now? Previously it was a weakness on "seaming wickets" according to you, now your including swing as well??

The guy is the most successful test opener for decades and your now suggesting he has a weakness against not only "seam", but now also swing??

how is he the most successful batsman if hes never scored on seaming wickets?
with regard to seam and swing, swing without seam doesnt trouble too many batsman, it is seam alone or seam with swing that causes problems.