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5 Greatest Captains Ever

Autobahn

State 12th Man
FaaipDeOiad said:
That's a harsh judgement on the talent of the South African team that Cronje worked with.

Not only did he have Donald and Pollock, he also had De Villiers and Kluesener, who were very good bowlers early in their careers. Throw in Brian McMillain and Kallis as all-rounders, both of whom were very good when Cronje had them. The batting was a little light at times, but really it wasn't a poor batting lineup, just average by international standards, with some top class players like Gary Kirsten. The bowling more than made up for it.

Cronje was definitely a good captain, but I think he had a strong team too, especially in ODIs.
The SA team has always been suited to ODI's because of so many good-allrounders in the team.

Woolmer would have probably been a good captaincy candidate after brearley retired because there no one else really, after the ashes they recalled Fletcher who was well past his best and turned to Willis who was really unsuited for the job.

But then as it happened he first joined kerry packer's circus and then joined Boycott and others on a plane bound for South Africa which ended his career.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
FaaipDeOiad said:
That's a harsh judgement on the talent of the South African team that Cronje worked with.

Not only did he have Donald and Pollock, he also had De Villiers and Kluesener, who were very good bowlers early in their careers. Throw in Brian McMillain and Kallis as all-rounders, both of whom were very good when Cronje had them. The batting was a little light at times, but really it wasn't a poor batting lineup, just average by international standards, with some top class players like Gary Kirsten. The bowling more than made up for it.
How often did Pollock & DeVilliers play together? I thought SP effectively replaced FdV, although there may have been some overlap.

Pendantry aside, I'm not saying they were poor players, obviously. I was actually being complementary about a group of very solid professionals absolutely making the most of their ability - something which England failed to do for years. That's especially true for the batsmen, who mostly weren't quite world class but sold their wickets dearly and usually produced enough runs for their bowlers to cope with. If some view that as damning them with faint praise, then so be it, but as I said previously, as an Englishman, I was deeply jealous at the time. As for the support bowlers, I don't think many would view them as outstanding, but they knew their job and did it really well. Cronje deserves credit for that, although it was also helped by consistent selections and the mentality of the players concerned.
 

Autobahn

State 12th Man
wpdavid said:
How often did Pollock & DeVilliers play together? I thought SP effectively replaced FdV, although there may have been some overlap.
Pollock and DeVilliers played only twice together in tests (including devilliers' last test)

Pakistan in South Africa 1997/98:

2nd Test
3rd Test

And in ODI's they played together 13 times

17th England in South Africa 1995/96
19th England in South Africa 1995/96
21th England in South Africa 1995/96
25 Feb 1996 Wills World Cup 1995/96
13 Apr 1996 Pepsi Sharjah Cup 1995/96
14 Apr 1996 Pepsi Sharjah Cup 1995/96
16 Apr 1996 Pepsi Sharjah Cup 1995/96
17 Apr 1996 Pepsi Sharjah Cup 1995/96
19 Apr 1996 Pepsi Sharjah Cup 1995/96
02 Nov 1997 Wills Golden Jubilee Tournament 1997/98
03 Nov 1997 Wills Golden Jubilee Tournament 1997/98
06 Nov 1997 Wills Golden Jubilee Tournament 1997/98
08 Nov 1997 Wills Golden Jubilee Tournament 1997/98

In reality Pollock and DeVilliers where completely different bowlers whereas Devilliers was always a swing merchant, pollock's offerings where based more on accuracy and at the start of his career, pace.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Slifer said:
I pick LLoyd as tops cuz it must have been difficult to go from being drubbed 5-1 to being told (by Tony Greig) that his team was goin to made to grovel.
Except he was never "told" anything of the sort.
What Greig said was "if they're down, they grovel. And I intend to make them grovel."
 

C_C

International Captain
Richard said:
Except he was never "told" anything of the sort.
What Greig said was "if they're down, they grovel. And I intend to make them grovel."

You do realise the significance of that, comming from a white saffie who jumped ship in the apartheid era, directing it to the newly independent caribbean team made up mostly of black players ?
Tony Greig made a lot of enemies that day in the caribbean - and i cant say that it isnt understandable from the part of the caribbean people.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
C_C said:
You do realise the significance of that, comming from a white saffie who jumped ship in the apartheid era, directing it to the newly independent caribbean team made up mostly of black players ?
Tony Greig made a lot of enemies that day in the caribbean - and i cant say that it isnt understandable from the part of the caribbean people.
You know, I never saw the racist undertones in Greig's statement until you pointed it out.

Oh, wait - I still can't.

It must be terrible having so many chips on your shoulder - and most of them belong to someone else.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
luckyeddie said:
You know, I never saw the racist undertones in Greig's statement until you pointed it out.

Oh, wait - I still can't.
Whether the racist undertones were consciously there or not, they were certainly taken as such by the WI cricketers, if Richards' autobiography is anything to go by, for all the reasons CC said. "Grovel" is a hugely pejorative term, and it's understandable that people would see it as a product of Greig's upbringing.
 

open365

International Vice-Captain
I think Fleming is the best captain ever, he's allways one step ahead of the game, making bowling changes/field placings before the incident happens, he's allways in controll of the gamne.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
C_C said:
You do realise the significance of that, comming from a white saffie who jumped ship in the apartheid era, directing it to the newly independent caribbean team made up mostly of black players ?
Tony Greig made a lot of enemies that day in the caribbean - and i cant say that it isnt understandable from the part of the caribbean people.
Of course I realise the significance of that, and it was one of several ill-judged comments Greig made in his career.
I happened to rather shudder when I first heard it - but it doesn't change the fact that he didn't say "I'll make you grovel", he said "I intend... to make them grovel" which isn't, quite, as bad as was suggested.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
wpdavid said:
Whether the racist undertones were consciously there or not, they were certainly taken as such by the WI cricketers, if Richards' autobiography is anything to go by, for all the reasons CC said. "Grovel" is a hugely pejorative term, and it's understandable that people would see it as a product of Greig's upbringing.
Point withdrawn
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
wpdavid said:
"Grovel" is a hugely pejorative term, and it's understandable that people would see it as a product of Greig's upbringing.
Hold on a second. The fact that Greig was white and South African meant what he said was taken differently than if someone else said it? And it was viewed as a product of his upbringing?

There were clearly stereotypical sentiments from the West Indian cricketers, the general public and press.

A simple definition of racism is giving broad generalizations to a group of people, ie South Africans are racist, African Americans are violent, Germans boring and efficient, Aussies obnoxious and uneducated, English are effeminate, Scottish and Irish alcoholics. To use these generalizations to frame an argument is dangerous and wrong.

If you ask me the West Indian cricketers took a stupid but innocent statement and got as much milage and currency out of it and IMO they acted worse than Greig.

Grieig was a dumbass, but the West Indians and the press were guilty of turning something into what it wasn't and blowing it all out of proportion.

Something was construed to be a 'racist slur' when it was a product of their own imagination, anger and prejudices.

Greig was England captain at the time and to say his South African background made him blatently racist is to 'tar all with the same brush' and apply unfair generalizations.

Interesting that accusations of racism occur by people appling the same logic they are arguing against.

I mean there is a fair amount of offensive and racist South African writing and comments, but to say a controversial comment came from a white South African ergo it has to be racist is overly simplistic and unreasonable.
 
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Slifer

International Captain
Goughy said:
Hold on a second. The fact that Greig was white and South African meant what he said was taken differently than if someone else said it? And it was viewed as a product of his upbringing?

There were clearly stereotypical sentiments from the West Indian cricketers, the general public and press.

A simple definition of racism is giving broad generalizations to a group of people, ie South Africans are racist, African Americans are violent, Germans boring and efficient, Aussies obnoxious and uneducated, English are effeminate, Scottish and Irish alcoholics. To use these generalizations to frame an argument is dangerous and wrong.

If you ask me the West Indian cricketers took a stupid but innocent statement and got as much milage and currency out of it and IMO they acted worse than Greig.

Grieig was a dumbass, but the West Indians and the press were guilty of turning something into what it wasn't and blowing it all out of proportion.

Something was construed to be a 'racist slur' when it was a product of their own imagination, anger and prejudices.

Greig was England captain at the time and to say his South African background made him blatently racist is to 'tar all with the same brush' and apply unfair generalizations.

Interesting that accusations of racism occur by people appling the same logic they are arguing against.

I mean there is a fair amount of offensive and racist South African writing and comments, but to say a controversial comment came from a white South African ergo it has to be racist is overly simplistic and unreasonable.
Until u step into the shoes of an actual West Indian and understand our history then u would never understand what it was for us to have an international captain express his willingness to make us grovel. I actually dont think his statement was racist but then I cant speak for all West Indians. And also our ill feelings towards Greig comes from years of questionable on-field/off field actions. For example the controversial run out of Alvin Kallicharan when everyone else knew that it was the close of play. Either way the point is until u actually step into the shoes of a West Indian i dont think u will ever understand y we feel the way we do about Greig.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
I cannot honestly see why the word 'grovel' EVER had racial connotations - it always conjured up to me the old Marty Feldman 'Yes, Master' Igor-type, a fawning, cringing lick-spittle, always rubbing his hands together as the Master told him that he needed 'more brains'.

Then again, I can remember when being 'gay' was being light-hearted and happy.
 

Fusion

Global Moderator
luckyeddie said:
.

Then again, I can remember when being 'gay' was being light-hearted and happy.
And I remember when this thread was about discussing the greatest captains! :cool: Just kidding guys, no offense intended.
 

C_C

International Captain
luckyeddie said:
You know, I never saw the racist undertones in Greig's statement until you pointed it out.

Oh, wait - I still can't.

It must be terrible having so many chips on your shoulder - and most of them belong to someone else.
If you cannot see the categoric offence you'd cause if you, as a whiteboy from an apartheid regime, told a black guy ' i intend to make you guys grovel', you have no idea really what is offensive and what isnt from a historical standpoint to the caribbean community.
As you said, it has the meaning of 'yes master' sidekick errandboy connotation to most people- but you are using the 'yes master' connotation to a group of people who's ancestors were enslaved and forced to say 'yes master' by your ancestors in the most inhumane way. Any connotation of 'master' - even in the most lighthearted fashion- comming from a guy born and brought up in a country following Apartheid, directed towards the people who's ancestors were brutally enslaved is simply not on. Its like making a comment about gas chambers to a european jew.
Perhaps if you interact with the caribbean community - particularly the 40+ age group today ( who were cognitive enough to pick up the grovel comment from back then), you'd realise why a comment like that is extremely offensive.
 
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Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
If you cannot see the categoric offence you'd cause if you, as a whiteboy from an apartheid regime, told a black guy ' i intend to make you guys grovel', you have no idea really what is offensive and what isnt from a historical standpoint to the caribbean community.
I went over this already. Just 'cos he is white does not mean he or his comments can be stereotyped in any way.

Now if he had said "We are going to make them blacks grovel" then he would have deserved to be stripped of the captaincy and for the world to hate him. However, he said no such thing.

BTW, Whiteboy is an offensive term.
 
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