a massive zebra
International Captain
1. Richie Benaud
2. Frank Worrell
3. Imran Khan
4. Mike Brearley
5. Don Bradman/Mark Taylor
2. Frank Worrell
3. Imran Khan
4. Mike Brearley
5. Don Bradman/Mark Taylor
-
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5 Greatest Captains Ever
- Thread starter Fusion
- Start date
Good thread...
1. Allan Border
My kind of captain. He wasn't a motivator, he led from example. He had this undefinable captain's quality where everybody would fall into line and obey Allan Border, yet Border really didn't ask them to. His first 2-3 years as captain were disasterous, but once captain grumpy came out, Australia really overachived. I have no idea how on earth they won the 1987 world cup. How they were able to tie a series against Pakistan and all the while they got better and better. ESPN's Legends of Cricket did a nice little piece on him that sums up what I think of him better than my words do. Honestly I just don't think I'm explaining Border well enough.
2. Imran Khan
A legend. Pakistan lost some of its flare when Khan left. They were a more charasmatic team with a charasmatic leader. Somebody who demanded total commitment from the team, and would encourage people like Wasim to try batting more and just asking extra effort. Like all captains should, he led from the front.
3. Frank Worrell
Underrated. Some would say overrated, but he's underrated. He effectively united the West Indies. I suppose he's on my list because of what he did off the field, but that was of great significance to the West Indies. He sounded like a great captain on field though, very cool and calm.
4. Ian Chappell
I didn't wanna have three Aussies on my list, but I wanted to put a honest list down. Chappell can be an long-winded boring guy to listen to, but when he talks about his stuff from the 70s, he becomes interesting. People think Allan Border started the uncomprimising and ruthless Aussie attitude, he didn't. Chappell did. Border was there to revive it and build a team out of this spirit. To understand Chappell's greatness you have to understand his history. Bill Lawry was sacked because Australia lost in SA 4-0 and then didn't win a game in the Ashes... granted most of the Ashes then was rained out. Lawry was the scapegoat, as most captains becomes when they lose. Chappell became captain and the first thing he said to his wife was, "the *******s will never get me."
You see Chappell refused to allow this unfair public pressure to be on him, so he started in the vain of being uncomprimising. Chappell didn't invent sledging... but he certainly perfected it. That Aussie team was in your face all the time. He demanded Lillee and Thompson give the opposition a brutal time because his theroy was "If you got em (fast bowlers) dish it out, because when you don't, you'll be on the receiving end." In fact listening to Chappell is almost like listening to Johan Cruyff's Cryffism's.
"A weakness in character is no difference to a weakness in technique."
"If you got em (fast bowlers) dish it out, because when you don't, you'll be on the receiving end."
He started the uncomprimising Aussie attitude. And it's actually a really interesting era to study. Viv Richards once compaired the Aussie's of 1975 to "fighting a war" and anything after that "would feel like a battle." That Australian team, you could make a case, despite being less talented, could have beaten this Aussie team because that intense pressure they mounted on their opposition with unmittegated aggression could make the best teams collapse. The West Indies of 1975 were a brilliant team. Lloyd, Greenidge, Richards, Roberts etc. Yet they lost 5-1. In fact West Indians have credited that series to how they planned their future. They wanted bowling bowled like Lillee and Thommo and batting that was positive the whole way through.
5. Steve Waugh
I'm finding it weird that people are talking about Clive Lloyd being number one and that Steve Waugh only had a great team which made him great. Llyod's West Indies were a better team than Waugh's team crica 2000-01. Anyway Mark Taylor was soft on dead rubber. Waugh wasn't. He despised draws, would not accept poor fielding, always wanted positive forward steps from his team. A team of great individuals does not make a great team. Waugh took them one step furhter. The thing about Australia scoring at 4 an over because of Waugh's desire is a bit of a myth though. Australua usually scored at 3 an over and everytime they scored at four an over, Gilchrist was making big scores. Notice now that Gilchrist is out of form Australia is making around 3 runs an over. When you have a guy scoring centuries at a run a ball, the run rate will go up. But Waugh led Australia with more dicipline than I'd ever seen.
Anybody who think any captain can just take over a team and be successful is wrong. Captaining is one of the most important jobs.
1. Allan Border
My kind of captain. He wasn't a motivator, he led from example. He had this undefinable captain's quality where everybody would fall into line and obey Allan Border, yet Border really didn't ask them to. His first 2-3 years as captain were disasterous, but once captain grumpy came out, Australia really overachived. I have no idea how on earth they won the 1987 world cup. How they were able to tie a series against Pakistan and all the while they got better and better. ESPN's Legends of Cricket did a nice little piece on him that sums up what I think of him better than my words do. Honestly I just don't think I'm explaining Border well enough.
2. Imran Khan
A legend. Pakistan lost some of its flare when Khan left. They were a more charasmatic team with a charasmatic leader. Somebody who demanded total commitment from the team, and would encourage people like Wasim to try batting more and just asking extra effort. Like all captains should, he led from the front.
3. Frank Worrell
Underrated. Some would say overrated, but he's underrated. He effectively united the West Indies. I suppose he's on my list because of what he did off the field, but that was of great significance to the West Indies. He sounded like a great captain on field though, very cool and calm.
4. Ian Chappell
I didn't wanna have three Aussies on my list, but I wanted to put a honest list down. Chappell can be an long-winded boring guy to listen to, but when he talks about his stuff from the 70s, he becomes interesting. People think Allan Border started the uncomprimising and ruthless Aussie attitude, he didn't. Chappell did. Border was there to revive it and build a team out of this spirit. To understand Chappell's greatness you have to understand his history. Bill Lawry was sacked because Australia lost in SA 4-0 and then didn't win a game in the Ashes... granted most of the Ashes then was rained out. Lawry was the scapegoat, as most captains becomes when they lose. Chappell became captain and the first thing he said to his wife was, "the *******s will never get me."
You see Chappell refused to allow this unfair public pressure to be on him, so he started in the vain of being uncomprimising. Chappell didn't invent sledging... but he certainly perfected it. That Aussie team was in your face all the time. He demanded Lillee and Thompson give the opposition a brutal time because his theroy was "If you got em (fast bowlers) dish it out, because when you don't, you'll be on the receiving end." In fact listening to Chappell is almost like listening to Johan Cruyff's Cryffism's.
"A weakness in character is no difference to a weakness in technique."
"If you got em (fast bowlers) dish it out, because when you don't, you'll be on the receiving end."
He started the uncomprimising Aussie attitude. And it's actually a really interesting era to study. Viv Richards once compaired the Aussie's of 1975 to "fighting a war" and anything after that "would feel like a battle." That Australian team, you could make a case, despite being less talented, could have beaten this Aussie team because that intense pressure they mounted on their opposition with unmittegated aggression could make the best teams collapse. The West Indies of 1975 were a brilliant team. Lloyd, Greenidge, Richards, Roberts etc. Yet they lost 5-1. In fact West Indians have credited that series to how they planned their future. They wanted bowling bowled like Lillee and Thommo and batting that was positive the whole way through.
5. Steve Waugh
I'm finding it weird that people are talking about Clive Lloyd being number one and that Steve Waugh only had a great team which made him great. Llyod's West Indies were a better team than Waugh's team crica 2000-01. Anyway Mark Taylor was soft on dead rubber. Waugh wasn't. He despised draws, would not accept poor fielding, always wanted positive forward steps from his team. A team of great individuals does not make a great team. Waugh took them one step furhter. The thing about Australia scoring at 4 an over because of Waugh's desire is a bit of a myth though. Australua usually scored at 3 an over and everytime they scored at four an over, Gilchrist was making big scores. Notice now that Gilchrist is out of form Australia is making around 3 runs an over. When you have a guy scoring centuries at a run a ball, the run rate will go up. But Waugh led Australia with more dicipline than I'd ever seen.
Anybody who think any captain can just take over a team and be successful is wrong. Captaining is one of the most important jobs.
archie mac
International Coach
Hayden was also scoring a lot of quick runs. Langer was also going at a fair clip. Not to mention Slater being at the top of the order for quite a whileFrancis said:
Slifer
International Captain
I pick LLoyd as tops cuz it must have been difficult to go from being drubbed 5-1 to being told (by Tony Greig) that his team was goin to made to grovel. he also lost the services of our greatest spinner (Lance Gibbs). Add this to tryin to unite several independent countries into a cohesive team and then having them go 20 years while only losing 2 test series, winning 2 world cups in a totally alien form of cricket (ODI), and i think LLoyd amply deserves his place among the top 5. and easily as wel as does the great Imran Khan
Getting grubbed by Chappell's team had everything to do with them being the most pressurising team ever. Greig's team unfortunately didn't come close. Of course it helped Lloyd that Richards put on perhaps the best one-man show in a series since the days of Bradman. No Aussie ever did what Viv did from Steve Waugh's captaincy. If they won because the team united under his leadership and worked hard with dicipline then that's another thing. But Viv won that series for the West Indies.
If anything it's a tribute to how awesome Chappell's team performed. That they contain such a team with such pressure.
And before anybody tells me, yes I know it was GREG Chappell who captained that series. However, it all stemmed from Ian's leadership. Much like Taylor benifitted off Border.
Worrell did that decades ago. I haven't heard of any lack of united among the islands from the 70s.
If that's your criteria then Bradman's the greatest ever captain. Did they ever lose the Ashes when he played in any series not named bodyline? What's that down to? Bradman being a great batsman mostly.
To be fair to Lloyd, he would have been in my top ten and I think he was a great captain. But he did have arguably the greatest team ever formed. Personally, like I said, I think it takes someone special to unite a team of great individuals, and I think Lloyd did that. But Steve Waugh did that with a worse team. Their winning streak was amazing (Waugh's team).
The only criteria people can honestly use for Lloyd is that he captained a great team and they had success. That isn't to undermine the fact that it takes someone special to unite a team of individuals. But when the time came, nobody was cooler than Steve Waugh, nobody more resolved the Frank Worrell, few more strategic than Khan, none more diciplined than Border. There are captains who've been tested under pressure and that's how I judge a captain. That's how I judged Ricky Ponting as he staged meeting after meeting on the field, looking like a headless chook during the Ashes.
If Lloyd is the greatest captain ever, he certainly didn't prove it because there just weren't many situations for him to prove it.
Also can somebody please explain to me why Stephen Fleming is being picked so much? In a game with such a rich history why are people picking him? Martin Cowe > Stephen Fleming.
ramkumar_gr
U19 Vice-Captain
S Waugh
Ravi Shashtri (Though he has captained only one test, feel he was very shrewd)
Nasser Hussain
Cronje
Clive LLoyd
Ravi Shashtri (Though he has captained only one test, feel he was very shrewd)
Nasser Hussain
Cronje
Clive LLoyd
Slifer
International Captain
R u serious about LLoyd not having to face serious pressure? When WI left Australia in 1975-76 they were literally battered and bruised much like what RSA are experiencing right now but perhaps even greater. But instead of wallowing around LLoyd helped his team to pick itself up and he had the presence of mine to follow in the australian example and load his team with fast bowlers. And for those who think his task was ez try again? And what about 1983 when WI shockingly lost the world cup there must have been calls for his resignation and question marks looming over his team instead he went to India and proceeded to steam roll them. On paper it may have seemed ez but tell me when has it ever been ez to win in the subcontinent. never!!Francis said:
aussie
Hall of Fame Member
Yea we all know Waugh had a top team to lead, but still you got to get the best out out of your stars & he did it well. Most of his tactics on the field were good & he was a great motivator & all the players respected him, plus he scored runs. What more would you want from your skipper?Richard said:
wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
I'd prefer not to lose a 3-test series when one up and with a 200+lead in the 2nd test against a side with only one bowler worthy of the name.aussie said:
Harsh? Maybe, but we are discussing the top 5 of all time. As someone said earlier, it's not his fault that he inherited a truck load of great players, but there are tougher assignments. Especially when the rest of the sides in the world are relatively moderate. The one time his side were under pressure, they buckled. Nuff said.
aussie
Hall of Fame Member
ye when India were in Australia & Australia were without some of its main bowlers i.e McGrath & Warne, his tactics in his last series there was poor at times, while in VB series 2001 the case was similar. But generally he was very good.wpdavid said:
Refering to the India series dont think Waugh can be blamed much there, India won via some amazing individual performances & looking back some people could say that Waugh could have tried to tell his batsmen to be a bit more defensive (which helped them to win in 2004), but that was the way that lead them to 16 test match wins in a row.