5 Greatest Captains Ever

[C_C]

I went over this already. Just 'cos he is white does not mean he or his comments can be stereotyped in any way.

BTW, Whiteboy is a very offensive term.

It is ?
Umm okay. Didnt know that - out here ( vancouver), whiteboy/brownboy is used pretty commonly without malicious intent per se- often amongst friends.
However, like i said, its not a question of just being white - its the fact that he was born and brought up in a country who's governing society was highly racist and seggregationist allied with the comment he made - its like a 80 year old former german leutanant from WWII making a joke about gas chambers to a jewish community. Simply not on.
It was seen as a white Saffie, brought up in racist climates, making a comment alluding to a 'master-slave/lackey' relationship to a group of people who are descendants of people enslaved and many of them having personal experience with racism ( the caribbean was racist towards the black and brown folks not very long ago- even as late as the 50s and 60s, black players couldnt enter the Barbados Cricket Club for example..and WI openly persued a 'white captain only' policy until Worrell became captain.

 

[luckyeddie]

If you cannot see the categoric offence you'd cause if you, as a whiteboy from an apartheid regime, told a black guy ' i intend to make you guys grovel', you have no idea really what is offensive and what isnt from a historical standpoint to the caribbean community.

Basically, anything that Greig said would and could have been taken in precisely the way it was taken - the word 'grovel' has no racial connotations whatsoever, never has had, never will have.

The fact that it was Greig who said anything at all and where he was born is the only point of any significance whatsoever.

The fact that Greig was a product of a racist regime doesn't prove one way or another that he himself was a racist - but 'guilt by association' is frequently used within this forum in order to 'prove' a point.

I am not defending anything Greig said - life's too short to get involved in another meaningless discussion about this or anything else - just saying that no race, class or ethnicity has a monopoly on grovelling. I repeat - It's not a racist term, never has been, never will be.

 

[archie mac]

It should also be said that I have never heard one player that Tong Greig played with or against say that he was racist. He has also gone out of his way to help the Sri Lankan cricket teams over the years, and has been one of their strongest supporters.

A freudian slip would be at worst beind the grovel comment.

 

[C_C]

A simple definition of racism is giving broad generalizations to a group of people, ie South Africans are racist, African Americans are violent, Germans boring and efficient, Aussies obnoxious and uneducated, English are effeminate, Scottish and Irish alcoholics. To use these generalizations to frame an argument is dangerous and wrong.

False. That doesnt qualify as racism by the very definition of the word 'racism'- which pertains to race. The examples you give are not encompassive of a particular race - disliking australians doesnt equate to racism - Australians neither is are race and nor are they representative of any race ( despite whatever ethnic composition of Australia may be).
It can be seen as a racist issue for *some* nations- such as Chinese or Indians- simply because they represent the overwhelming bulk of a particular 'race' of people.

And whether you like it or not, the first impressions of a person are pre-determined in extreme cases - if you are a white saffie born and raised during the apartheid era, you most definately will be suspected of racist tendencies by others, simply because of the overwhelming societerial norm when you are growing up. It may not apply to saffies today but comming from the apartheied era, a white guy making comments alluding to a slave-master situation is most definately gonna be taken as a racist comment.
And before you yell 'foul' - its the same with Japanese from WWII era interacting with Koreans or Philipinos. When you openly use racist policies as a societerial norm, you are a boderline case as it is - ally that with a very derogatory comment and you most definately will be considered racist the world over.

 

[C_C]

the word 'grovel' has no racial connotations whatsoever, never has had, never will have.

Says who ? Your queen's english ?
Why dont you ask englishspeaking caribbean folks if the word 'grovel', when said by a white guy to a black guy has any racist connotation or not ?

The fact that Greig was a product of a racist regime doesn't prove one way or another that he himself was a racist - but 'guilt by association' is frequently used within this forum in order to 'prove' a point.

The fact that Greig was a product of a racist regime makes him a questionable entity to begin with - one can obviously establish himself as an awesome individual but if you say a comment that is seen as racist in the whole region, you are chopping your own foot.

Culture makes a profound impression on a person and if you wish to be taken as an exception case( which the whole idea of 'a non-racist white saffie in the apartheid era' is - an exception. It is common knowledge that racism was a very very popular notion amongst the minority white population in RSA and it is also indicative in their policies and hold of power. As a minority, you cannot enact a racist regime unless you got near-complete backing of your community at the very least), you have to establish that.
And if you blunder into a comment that is seen as racist in the region, you've just damned yourself and rightly so.
Its just as insensetive as saying 'the Iraqi crusade' (from Arab perspective) or a former leutanant of the nazi army joking about gas chambers with jewish people.

 

[C_C]

It should also be said that I have never heard one player that Tong Greig played with or against say that he was racist. He has also gone out of his way to help the Sri Lankan cricket teams over the years, and has been one of their strongest supporters.

A freudian slip would be at worst beind the grovel comment.

I will consider that angle if and only if Greg had issued a public apology for his comment. Else it probably will go down as ' an opportunist' or ' a person who grew a brain later in life' scenario.

 

[archie mac]

I will consider that angle if and only if Greg had issued a public apology for his comment. Else it probably will go down as ' an opportunist' or ' a person who grew a brain later in life' scenario.

I think you are being a bit harsh, I don't think it created big headlines at the time, but later as the Windies greats started to release bios and the like.

Besides I think the Windies answered it on the field during the series.

I can't remember any of those players involved in the series suggesting that Greig was a racist or that they wanted an apology?

It was a throw away line, is there any footage of the comments?

 

[Sanz]

I cannot honestly see why the word 'grovel' EVER had racial connotations - it always conjured up to me the old Marty Feldman 'Yes, Master' Igor-type, a fawning, cringing lick-spittle, always rubbing his hands together as the Master told him that he needed 'more brains'.

Then again, I can remember when being 'gay' was being light-hearted and happy.

From the BBC website :-


".....His next brush with controversy came before the home series with the West Indies when he was interviewed on Sportsnight. He said that the West Indies were a great team, but when they were down they tended to grovel, and he intended to make them grovel. The press had a field day with the remark. He was portrayed as this big racist South African who wanted to put non-whites in their place. It was tremendously damaging to him on a personal basis. His father rang him up from South Africa, not with words of comfort, but with an irate enquiry as to whether he had ever looked in a dictionary! Clive Lloyd used the remark to fire up a great team and they won a five-test series 3-0...."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1038755

 

[Goughy]

False. That doesnt qualify as racism by the very definition of the word 'racism'- which pertains to race.

Without wanting for this to go on for ever, your false is false. It has far greater scope than pure race. If it didn't then a great number of court cases would never have been won.

And before you yell 'foul' - its the same with Japanese from WWII era interacting with Koreans or Philipinos. When you openly use racist policies as a societerial norm, you are a boderline case as it is - ally that with a very derogatory comment and you most definately will be considered racist the world over.

You dont need to tell me about this case. My father-in-law, as a very young man, fought the Japanese in the Philipines as a bare-foot guerrilla. Fair to say he does not have fond memories of the Japanese but he certainly does not carry a massive chip on his shoulder about it or get offended by what the Japanese say.

Anyway, we are getting way off track.

Final thoughts on the matter, I can see why West Indians were offended but I think they were wrong to do so and their reaction has been a burden for Greig to carry throughout life.

 

[archie mac]

From the BBC website :-


".....His next brush with controversy came before the home series with the West Indies when he was interviewed on Sportsnight. He said that the West Indies were a great team, but when they were down they tended to grovel, and he intended to make them grovel. The press had a field day with the remark. He was portrayed as this big racist South African who wanted to put non-whites in their place. It was tremendously damaging to him on a personal basis. His father rang him up from South Africa, not with words of comfort, but with an irate enquiry as to whether he had ever looked in a dictionary! Clive Lloyd used the remark to fire up a great team and they won a five-test series 3-0...."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1038755

That is interesting, a bigger thing than I thought at the time. What were Greig's answers to the follow up questions in the days after?

 

[C_C]

It has far greater scope than pure race. If it didn't then a great number of court cases would never have been won.

I doubt if i say today ' Aussies are blahblah', i can be prosecuted for racism - perhaps ethnic hatred- but ethnic does not equate to race.

Final thoughts on the matter, I can see why West Indians were offended but I think they were wrong to do so and their reaction has been a burden for Greig to carry throughout life

I find that the West Indian community's reactions was perfectly justified.
A white man, brought up in a nation that believes blacks are inferior to whites and fit to be slaves or semi-slaves makes a comment towards a predominantly black team, who's just gained independence and just a few years earlier dismanted their own opressive situations under mostly white racist governments, about how he would like to see them bow to the masters (which is what grovelling as a word implies - a master-slave/lackey/sidekick relationship). And its not him being insensetive but the caribbean community taking it the wrong way.
Right-O !

PS: What do you think the reaction of Aussies would be, around the turn of the last century, if an english captain told the press that he intends to 'slap on the shackles to the aussies as they have a tendency to get too outta control' ?

 

[archie mac]

I
PS: What do you think the reaction of Aussies would be, around the turn of the last century, if an english captain told the press that he intends to 'slap on the shackles to the aussies as they have a tendency to get too outta control' ?

I thought I might take this one

Would not have happened as most Aussies thought of themselves as Englishman in those days, and refered to a trip to England 'as going home'

If they said it now we would laugh, as that means little to any Australian these days.

 

[C_C]

I thought I might take this one

Would not have happened as most Aussies thought of themselves as Englishman in those days, and refered to a trip to England 'as going home'

If they said it now we would laugh, as that means little to any Australian these days.

I would immagine opposite really - any comments referring 'Australins = convicts' even in an oblique fashion today is seen as inflamatory - and a 100 years ago, dont you think it would've been seen as even more inflammatory, given the 'not so long ago' use of Australia as a prison colony only ( 100 years ago - it would've been a handful of decades ago factor) ?

 

[luckyeddie]

Says who ? Your queen's english ?
Why dont you ask englishspeaking caribbean folks if the word 'grovel', when said by a white guy to a black guy has any racist connotation or not ?.

OK, C_C, I concede, and I shan't bother discussing anything else with you ever again.

Anyone who ever disagrees with you seems to be always wrong - well, I guess I'll have to back down because I'm just too tired to be right any more.

I've been desperately seeking the middle ground on this matter - but with you there isn't any - ever.

 

[C_C]

OK, C_C, I concede, and I shan't bother discussing anything else with you ever again.

Anyone who ever disagrees with you seems to be always wrong - well, I guess I'll have to back down because I'm just too tired to be right any more.

I've been desperately seeking the middle ground on this matter - but with you there isn't any - ever.

Look- i interact with the caribbean community over the net - atleast at caribbeancricket.com.
I've noticed what their take on the matter is and i find it simply ignorant to say that phrases like 'lets make them grovel' comming from a white guy aimed towards a group of black guys is extremely racist. There are a few white Jamaicans and Trinis in that website and they unanimously decry Greg's comment - not to mention, the media and from what it seems, Greg's own father.
I'd chalk it up to total cultural ignorance and insensetivity from Greig's part.
And if i put myself in their shoes, i can see clearly why Tony Greig would be public enemy #1 simply due to the cultural and societerial history of the region.

How comfortable would you be hearing a former WWII german soldier joke about gas chambers to a jewish guy ( even without explicitly stating ' i wanna gas you') ? It is something on par to that in terms of insensetivity.

 

[Goughy]

How comfortable would you be hearing a former german soldier joke about gas chambers to a jewish guy ( even without explicitly stating ' i wanna gas you') ? It is something on par to that in terms of insensetivity.

That is absolute ********.

The German soldier argument only holds if Greig was actively involved in SA politics.

If Greig was a prominent member of the apartheid National Party then that would make his statement a huge problem. If he was, then I conceed all you say but I very much doubt he was.

It seems Greigs biggest crime was being white and South African and if that causes a problem rather than who or what he actually is, or his true personality then the problem is all West Indian.

Just because West Indians were offended does not mean what was said was meant to be offensive or deserved to be classed as such.

 

[Goughy]

Anyway, it all happened a long time ago. I guess there is no point us all getting worked up about it.

Guess we just see flip sides of the same coin and agree to differ.

 

[Richard]

BTW, Whiteboy is an offensive term.

I know, that's why I don't like this song.

 

[C_C]

That is absolute ********.

The German soldier argument only holds if Greig was actively involved in SA politics.

If Greig was a prominent member of the apartheid National Party then that would make his statement a huge problem. If he was, then I conceed all you say but I very much doubt he was.

It seems Greigs biggest crime was being white and South African and if that causes a problem rather than who or what he actually is, or his true personality then the problem is all West Indian.

Just because West Indians were offended does not mean what was said was meant to be offensive or deserved to be classed as such.

No it is not - you are assuming that every single German soldier was a nazi- just like how one assumes Greg's viewpoints on equality to be questionable at best.
And on top of that, you add an inflamatory comment and its easy to see why he got slated.
His comments, comming from the background he did made his comments extremely questionable. As i said- if you belong to that generation of South Africans, i most definately am NOT gonna assuem that you are a gentleman- you have to stake your claim to that. You start off as someone with questionable attitude at best.
If you want to claim that you are one of the very very few white saffies who grew up under apartheid and wasnt racist, you have to establish that. Not the 'gentleman until proven otherwise'. Special scenarios exist and this one is such.

 

[C_C]

Anyway, it all happened a long time ago. I guess there is no point us all getting worked up about it.

Guess we just see flip sides of the same coin and agree to differ.

Everytime a white guy does some racist thing here or there, there is all sorts of justifications flying outta the woodworks. I would agree to disagree usually but in this case, there is no flip side of the coin.
And if there is, tell the jews to shut up about someone doing a Seig Heil in their face.