13 overrated players of the last 20 odd years

[Tom Halsey]

Which thread was that?

Can't remember the name of it, it was me, tec and a few others against you and a few others - eventually everyone on both sides was getting so ****ed off with it we sort of gave up (from memory).

 

[Tom Halsey]

Warne has gone at exactly 3 an over for the last 5 years (in which he has played no less than 48 matches). I agree that he is a much more accurate and reliable bowler than MacGill, but that is not exactly hard and his economy over the last half dozen years or so (a very considerable stretch of time) is hardly something to write home about.

That's largely to do with attacking batting now. Murali's ER is much lower because if people block him, they can attack the others.

 

[a massive zebra]

That's largely to do with attacking batting now. Murali's ER is much lower because if people block him, they can attack the others.

Your second comment is certainly valid but does not entirely account for the huge disparity of 0.77 runs per over (Murali 2.23, Warne 3.00) between the two great spinners during this millenium.

If we agree that Murali is generally played with a much more caution, and yet he still has a better career strike rate, one has little choice but to conclude that he is the much more dangerous bowler.

 

[Tom Halsey]

If we agree that Murali is generally played with a much more caution, and yet he still has a better career strike rate, one has little choice but to conclude that he is the much more dangerous bowler.

How many of Murali's matches are played in Sri Lanka?

 

[open365]

comparing warne and murali is immposible.

murali doesn't bowl leg spin,he invented a new kind of bowling style and comparing him to a conventional leg spinner like warne doesn't make sense.

 

[Tom Halsey]

comparing warne and murali is immposible.

murali doesn't bowl leg spin,he invented a new kind of bowling style and comparing him to a conventional leg spinner like warne doesn't make sense.

Comparing two wrist-spinners is reasonably easy IMO. Comparing a spinner and a seamer less so.

 

[tooextracool]

I am sorry but YOU dont define what match conditions were pacer friendly and what wernt.
Bowlers and players who've played/commented about the game know far better than you do and Perth/Barbados/etc. dont turn to flat wickets coz Tendy is batting and then back to tough wickets when your favourite batsman is.
You kids need to learn a bit more and watch a player through their careers if you are gonna make statements like that. And dont try to pull a fast one here - i can give you atleast 10 matches where the ball was bouncing/seaming massively and Tendulkar stood up and got counted..

seam,swing, reverse anything that helps the bowler. of course you also have to be capable of doing those, rather than just getting the conditions to do it in.
and if theres one thing that i really get annoyed at is peopel stereotyping pitches as being seamer friendly all the time(especially from someone who calls me a kid). barbados doesnt always produce seam movement, neither does perth.

Given that you think that Ambrose and McGrath are bigtime seamers of the ball, i dont expect anything else...

given that anyone whos watched them bowl will tell you that, i dont expect anything else from you.

And common opinion ? For one, it isnt even remotely common opinion. Try getting out in the real world a bit more and try hearing what the players and commentators say, instead of people like you with issues....

what are you talking about? im telling you that i dont go along with common opinion
if you cant use you own knowledge of the game to come up with your own opinions then what is the point of even calling yourself an expert? most experts dont watch even half the games that go on, except the ones that they commentate in and those that involve their countries.

Second, try forming your own opinion - common opinion isnt gospel.....

which is exactly what ive done.

Third, selective statistics can show me to be a better bowler than McGrath if i tried hard enough to prove my point. There is quite a bit of difference between statistical analysis( of which you have no clue of) and data-mining - looking for statistics to suit your argument.

i havent used statistical analysis to argue my point about tendulkar. hes failed miserable in pacer friendly conditions, its simple as that. you used statistics yourself to make him look like an all time great, when hes not.

he is amongst the best because there are very few batsmen who are better than him ( and 20 constitute as very few). You can score 40 in your mid term and still be amongst the best because best means how you do relative to others!
He was no great shakes as an ODI batsman but an excellent batsman overall. Simple as that.

conveniently forgetting that hes not in the top 20, and hes not even close. and i love the logic that hes no great shakes as an ODI batter and yet is excellent. averaging 35 is not excellent, its very ordinary, especially when it gets worse away from the subcontinent.

 

[tooextracool]

Hick was an absolute waste of space.

even though he has a far better ODI record than aravinda and scored runs all over the world.

and i never said Aravinda's record was excellent against top teams - just that overall he is a better batsman than Fairbrother and his record against top teams is better..

and you provided such valid reasons for that to. fairbrother has the better overall average but because he struggles against the top teams(forget the fact that aravinda is a joke away from the subcontinent) aravinda must be better.

Same with Lamb and Robin smith - your english bias is showing here quite clearly, as none of them are considered anything more than average batsmen..

CONSIDERED? so we should go according to whos the most overrated batsmen then?
both lamb and smith were extremely underrated during their time, and just because they didnt win world cups for their country, play 300 ODIs or play in the subcontinent with legions of fans around them it doesnt make them average. both had excellent records, and lamb had a pretty decent SR for someone of his era.

And twoose ? ffs - i've not even heard many rabid kiwis make that kinda statement.

clearly another player you didnt watch bat then?
for someone who apparently makes his own opinion, you really are quite a joker, using what everyone else says as basis for your arguments.

 

[tooextracool]

Hick was an utter waste of space in Test cricket. As per ODI cricket goes - his stats and Aravinda's stats are comparable, bar for the fact that Aravinda played more than 2x as much..
As per Smith - he played less than 1/3rd of Aravinda.

oh so its clearly hick and smiths fault that england didnt play much ODI cricket in the 90s then? by your explanation tendulkar is a better player than bradman because hes played twice as many test matches.

 

[tooextracool]

1. He may have a miserable record in India, but regardless all the accolades that Ponting gets its rightly deserved he is by no means over-rated.

so ponting deserves to be compared to dravid and be called an all time great even though he cant play spin? thats an absolute joke. .

3. Really?, you got to show me that, i cant believe Langer would be over-rated he is the most established opener in world cricket today & his record in the last couple of years is top notch so all the accolades he gets these days i aslo rightly deserved..

look at his series by series record, a 3 test match series consists of 1 100 and no 50s or occasionally 1 hundred and a 50. very rarely does he have series where he scores 2-3 100s in the same series.

4. Regardless Inzi is still a top notch player one of the best over the last 10 years, by no means over-rated

you can be a top notch player and still be overrated as far as im concerned.

 

[tooextracool]

LMAO! That's borderline ridiculous as Richard's "I know more about Flintoff than Flintoff does".

Ah... absolutely hilarious. Richard knows more than Flintoff, TEC knows more than McGrath, Warne and co.

what the you on about? why is it not possible for me to know more about tendulkar than glenn mcgrath?
its one mans opinions vs the other.

 

[Salamuddin]

One guy who seems to be overrated to some Aussie and Kiwi supporters here is VVS Laxman - a common complaint being a) he's dining out on that 281 b) he's crap away from India.

Well, here are some stats: 1) He actually averages over 50 in test cricket since that Famous test in Calcutta.
2) He averages 40 in Engand, 48 in South Africa, 53 in the West Indies and 60 in Australia.

 

[aussie]

so ponting deserves to be compared to dravid and be called an all time great even though he cant play spin? thats an absolute joke. .



look at his series by series record, a 3 test match series consists of 1 100 and no 50s or occasionally 1 hundred and a 50. very rarely does he have series where he scores 2-3 100s in the same series.



you can be a top notch player and still be overrated as far as im concerned.

1. well i dont know who compares him to dravid but Ponting for me is definately a player who is on the verge to becoming an all-time great & if you have watched him since that horrific tour in 2001 his play againts spin has improved vastly.

2. Still why does make him overrated.

3. Fair enough, but i dont think that works for Inzi...

 

[Craig]

And twoose ? ffs - i've not even heard many rabid kiwis make that kinda statement.

Actually Twose was a fine one day batsman for New Zealand and a very consistent player. Sure he was crap in Tests, but it is hardly a different kettle of fish in the other game.

At least England have done right thing

 

[Craig]

please tell me how hes not? hes considered the equal of dravid, and all time great and everything, yet he struggles against spin and has been a miserable failure in india.

So yet Hayden is over-rated and even though he has had a good time in India, yet Ponting is because he can't buy a run in India? And I should add that is in Test cricket. He has shown he can score them in ODI cricket there. And don't say they are different, because yes the games are different, the bowlers are the same, the grounds are the same, the pitches are the same, the umpires are the same, so it is not as though he is completely hopeless against spin. Also you don't need me to tell that he has had some success in Sri Lanka and Pakistan.

how many people make him out to be poor. the vast majority of people who make him out to be bad are actually on this board, the majority of the people believe that macgill would have been one of the best spin bowlers(and some still believe that he is) if warne didnt play for australia.

That is what I am referring to in general and it is the case on other forums I visited.

 

[tooextracool]

1. well i dont know who compares him to dravid but Ponting for me is definately a player who is on the verge to becoming an all-time great & if you have watched him since that horrific tour in 2001 his play againts spin has improved vastly.

umm there are many many people, even on these forums who(at least at one point in time) believed that ponting was as good as dravid and put him down as an all time great. in fact very few people didnt throw daggers at me when i said that he wasnt an all time great.

2. Still why does make him overrated.

because consistency is important?

 

[tooextracool]

So yet Hayden is over-rated and even though he has had a good time in India, yet Ponting is because he can't buy a run in India? And I should add that is in Test cricket. He has shown he can score them in ODI cricket there. And don't say they are different, because yes the games are different, the bowlers are the same, the grounds are the same, the pitches are the same, the umpires are the same, so it is not as though he is completely hopeless against spin. Also you don't need me to tell that he has had some success in Sri Lanka and Pakistan.

how are the pitches the same? its completely different batting in ODIs on what are generally flat wickets to harbhajan singh and anil kumble with no forward short leg or silly point standing in front of you. and i've been through the whole SL and pakistan thing, pakistan havent really had a quality spinner for a fair bit of time(Even if danish might develop into something), and in SL he had one good series. thats about it.

 

[C_C]

oh so its clearly hick and smiths fault that england didnt play much ODI cricket in the 90s then? by your explanation tendulkar is a better player than bradman because hes played twice as many test matches.

If their records would've been comparable then yes, Tendulkar would be considered better than Bradman playing 2x the # of matches.
Its not Hick or Smith's fault that ENG didnt play much ODIs but your reputation is based on your achievements - playing 2x more with a slightly lower return per capita makes you a better player.
Simple as that.

 

[C_C]

seam,swing, reverse anything that helps the bowler. of course you also have to be capable of doing those, rather than just getting the conditions to do it in.
and if theres one thing that i really get annoyed at is peopel stereotyping pitches as being seamer friendly all the time(especially from someone who calls me a kid). barbados doesnt always produce seam movement, neither does perth.

You are a kid compared to me- a teenager is and no, despite your protestations, you are not an expert- you are yet to understand the nuance between swing and seam bowling, much less favourable 'pace' conditions.
Barbados has been pace friendly for almost all its time since the early 60s all the way to late 90s.
Barbados was seaming and boucing excellently in 1996 when Tendulkar played Ambrose and Walsh there - apart from the on-drive, almost all of Tendulkar and Dravid's legside runs came off of chest high pulls and Tendulkar even hooked twice during that innings.
If that wasnt a pacy wicket, i dont know what is.
The perth innings - i have the entire Tendulkar footage on tape if you want it and you'd see just how far the ball was bouncing - almost every other delivery was chest high to him and moving alarmingly off the pitch.
But then again, for someone who works on just an arrogant notion of 'expertise' instead of an actual one, one who doesnt know the difference between swing and seam and one who thinks 'whenever this batsman scores, it must be favourable conditions', it is hardly surprising.

given that anyone whos watched them bowl will tell you that, i dont expect anything else from you.

And those 'anyones' would be wrong. If Ambrose and McGrath are huge seamers of the ball then Kumble is a big spinner of the ball.

i havent used statistical analysis to argue my point about tendulkar. hes failed miserable in pacer friendly conditions, its simple as that. you used statistics yourself to make him look like an all time great, when hes not.

Next time, try using statistical inference instead of your narrowminded idea of what is a good batting condition and what isnt. Tendulkar has done better than any batsman in the last 20 years against pace- statistics show it and experience of viewership confirms that.
When you are capable of using objective statistical analysis inorder to determine who is a good player and who isnt then you can talk. Till then, if i may say so humbly, shut up.

conveniently forgetting that hes not in the top 20, and hes not even close. and i love the logic that hes no great shakes as an ODI batter and yet is excellent. averaging 35 is not excellent, its very ordinary, especially when it gets worse away from the subcontinent.

He is in the top 20 in my opinion and i dont want to belabour the point but lets say he is in the top 20-25. Which is pretty select echelon for ODI cricket. And no, Hick, Smith, etc. are not, despite your pusillanimous vacillations in reference to your motherland.

 

[Shoaib]

overrated

Ijaz Ahmed (not against Australia)
Graeme Smith
Sourav Ganguly
Craig McMillan
Daryll Cullinan
Ian Bishop
Shane Bond
Dion Nash
Carl Hooper
Ajit Agarkar
MS Dhoni
Mohammad Kaif
Chris Gayle
Taufiq Umar
Yuvraj Singh
Matthew Hayden
Yasir Hameed
Mohammad Wasim
Azhar Mahmood
Imran Nazir
Mohammad Zahid
Mark Waugh
Shane Warne
Sachin Tendulkar
Mohammad Yousaf (formerly Yousaf Youhana)
Abdul Razzaq
Shivnarine Chanderpaul
Irfan Pathan
Parthiv Patel
Rameez Raja
Sanjay Manjeraker
Herschelle Gibbs