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‘The Warne’ factor

Sunil1z

International Regular
By "certain types of pitches" I mostly mean the sorts of pitches seen in India in the last four or five years. Some of them have been extremely difficult to bat on, for all involved, due to the threat of the straight ball pinning you LBW. Not impossible but beyond most Test batsmen.
Is this pitches or mostly Ashwin/Jadeja who are absolutely relentless.

Imagine McGrath and Lillee bowling against you on Old WACA tracks or Gabba tracks for 12 consecutive overs ? How many batsmen would survive such spell .
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Is this pitches or mostly Ashwin/Jadeja who are absolutely relentless.

Imagine McGrath and Lillee bowling against you on Old WACA tracks or Gabba tracks for 12 consecutive overs ? How many batsmen would survive such spell .
It's obviously both but it's not as if most Indian batsmen have had a great time on these surfaces of late either, and they don't get the excuse of facing Ashwin and Jadeja.
 

R!TTER

State Regular
You have no proof that they benefitted any more than any one else. This is simply you being an utter ********.
Oh f*** off I already gave you two howlers, want more?

There were at least 2-3 howlers against SRT in the series, famously or infamously it was SRT vs Bucknor in that series before he scored the double in SCG. So you want the 6-7 howlers from SCG 2008 next?
 

Sunil1z

International Regular
It's obviously both but it's not as if most Indian batsmen have had a great time on these surfaces of late either.
Smith , Pujara and Rahul did well on exactly similar pitches in 2017
Rohit is also doing fine . So was Pant before injury .

I will blame 20% on pitch , 20% on DRS and 60% on players being inept against spin in general .
 

Molehill

Cricketer Of The Year
So the consensus seems to be spinners are all getting more lbws with DRS but a bloke who took 708 test wickets bowling spin wouldn’t have got any benefit from it? Ok.
He'd have got something like a 3% increase on his lbw victims, so another 4 maybe??? The problem is, if spinners are getting more lbw victims, does that mean they're getting less caught/bowled/stumped etc etc?
 

Molehill

Cricketer Of The Year
It's obviously both but it's not as if most Indian batsmen have had a great time on these surfaces of late either, and they don't get the excuse of facing Ashwin and Jadeja.
Was just looking back to the England Tour in 2021. After the First Test on a relatively flattish pitch when Root got a double ton, there was a clear change in strategy for pitch creation. Make it turn a lot and back the Indian spinners to outbowl their counterparts. Highest Indian score in that series was 365 but they won it 3-1 with none of their 3 victories being remotely close contests.

That strategy doesn't seem to have changed at all in this series. They are not looking for 500 pitches at all now, they are making it harder for batsmen.
 

Sunil1z

International Regular
Was just looking back to the England Tour in 2021. After the First Test on a relatively flattish pitch when Root got a double ton, there was a clear change in strategy for pitch creation. Make it turn a lot and back the Indian spinners to outbowl their counterparts. Highest Indian score in that series was 365 but they won it 3-1 with none of their 3 victories being remotely close contests.

That strategy doesn't seem to have changed at all in this series. They are not looking for 500 pitches at all now, they are making it harder for batsmen.
Team management doesn’t trust our batting line up .So they ask for spin friendly wickets. And they are not wrong.
Aussies had India at 135/7 in 1st innings and if not for 123 runs partnership between Axar and Ashwin, we might have been bowled out for 150 and lost the Test in the 1st innings itself .
 

Coronis

International Coach
Oh f*** off I already gave you two howlers, want more?

There were at least 2-3 howlers against SRT in the series, famously or infamously it was SRT vs Bucknor in that series before he scored the double in SCG. So you want the 6-7 howlers from SCG 2008 next?
Now please show all the wickets given not out by umpires.
 

Nintendo

Cricketer Of The Year
I believe Shane Warne was one of the major reasons Aus dominated RSA in 90s and 2000s when SA were clear no.2 atleast till 03 . This dominance made AUS undisputed no.1 and ATG side.

My question is how would AUS between 95-07 fare if instead of Warne, Lyon was their main spinner?
Conversely how would current Aus side fare if Warne was their main spinner instead of Lyon ?
Don't think many of our Asia games change too much. 1st test in pak was so flat I doubt even warne could have made the game interesting, second test lyon took 5fer in the second dig anyway, 3rd test we won. 1st test in sri lanka we won aswell. Maybe we would have done better in the second test vs Sri lanka if warne was playing over lyon, don't think he would have done as poorly as lyon did, and he probably would have hung around with smith a bit longer in the first innings and given us an extra 30 odd runs. Not a huge difference but may have helped things a bit.

1st test vs india could have been interesting. Warne's record in india is pretty poor by his standards but lyon bowled trash in that match and warne is VERY good against the lower order, so maybe he could have gotten axar/shami out earlier and made the game interesting? Most recent game vs india still goes the same way, maybe worse given lyon took 5fer and warne's record in india.

Don't think much changes at home either, lyon has been phenomenal in Australian conditions. Maybe AUS would have won the ashes in england in 2019 if they had warne over lyon? Warne's record in england is phenomenal, and I don't think stokes would have been able to tear into warne the same way he did lyon in his 136*.
 

Xix2565

International Regular
Team management doesn’t trust our batting line up .So they ask for spin friendly wickets. And they are not wrong.
Aussies had India at 135/7 in 1st innings and if not for 123 runs partnership between Axar and Ashwin, we might have been bowled out for 150 and lost the Test in the 1st innings itself .
This is so dumb. Even in flatter conditions the ball is still going to aid spin and the Indian bowlers are the best home attack at the moment. Batters don't win games more than bowlers ffs.
 

Nintendo

Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah I feel like if I was doctoring pitches for the BCCI i'de want a deck with a bit of spin but not an absolute rank turner. Rank turner's bring other spinner's into play, and jadeja+ashwin are good enough to take wickets on just about any indian deck. Lowering the gap between india's spinner's and everyone elses's spinner's on purpose just feels a bit odd.
 

Xix2565

International Regular
Yeah I feel like if I was doctoring pitches for the BCCI i'de want a deck with a bit of spin but not an absolute rank turner. Rank turner's bring other spinner's into play, and jadeja+ashwin are good enough to take wickets on just about any indian deck. Lowering the gap between india's spinner's and everyone elses's spinner's on purpose just feels a bit odd.
The thing now is that wins are more valuable now and the general setup is fine at the moment with batting averages dipping for their bowlers to run free.

Add on that pitch curation isn't perfect and you're likely to not get the batting tracks served up pre Covid. Even then it's not like India can't make runs either since the oppostion attack is almost always outclassed.
 

Sunil1z

International Regular
This is so dumb. Even in flatter conditions the ball is still going to aid spin and the Indian bowlers are the best home attack at the moment. Batters don't win games more than bowlers ffs.
Even bowlers need some runs to defend . Your bowlers won’t look as dangerous if Team has 1st innings deficit of 100 runs .
 

Xix2565

International Regular
Even bowlers need some runs to defend . Your bowlers won’t look as dangerous if Team has 1st innings deficit of 100 runs .
Yeah, and the touring bowlers have always been worse than the Indian bowlers for a long time regardless of pitch types. So the Indian batters have always gotten to make more runs because the opposition don't have the control and wicket taking experience needed.

Like even the recent 2 Tests had literal debutants or inexperienced players as the 3rd/4th options while India had Axar/Shami/Siraj. You can't win Tests with that sort of disadvantage.
 

Molehill

Cricketer Of The Year
This is so dumb. Even in flatter conditions the ball is still going to aid spin and the Indian bowlers are the best home attack at the moment. Batters don't win games more than bowlers ffs.
But look back to 2021, the ball did turn in the First Test but not enough to stop Root scoring a double. He literally won that Test by being the best batsman, unless you're going to try and convince me that Dom Bess is a better bowler than Ashwin!!
 

Sunil1z

International Regular
Yeah, and the touring bowlers have always been worse than the Indian bowlers for a long time regardless of pitch types. So the Indian batters have always gotten to make more runs because the opposition don't have the control and wicket taking experience needed.

Like even the recent 2 Tests had literal debutants or inexperienced players as the 3rd/4th options while India had Axar/Shami/Siraj. You can't win Tests with that sort of disadvantage.
I am not disputing it . But team management has more faith on bowlers than batsmen . So want bowlers to dominate.

Our pitches are now equivalent of SA where 350 in 1st innings is winning score 80% of time .
 

Xix2565

International Regular
But look back to 2021, the ball did turn in the First Test but not enough to stop Root scoring a double. He literally won that Test by being the best batsman, unless you're going to try and convince me that Dom Bess is a better bowler than Ashwin!!
The first pitch was basically a road for 2 days and Root and co got to feed on Sundar and Nadeem as the 4th/5th options. Their next innings in spinning conditions they notably failed to pass 200 and that trend continued until Ahmedabad 4th Test. Root made a good double but Sibley and Stokes also made runs before they vanished along with Root for the rest of that series when India got a better bowler and more spinning conditions. At that 1st Test England got the same cushion of runs India have almost always enjoyed and so they got to bowl more aggressively without risking too much in the way of runs.
I am not disputing it . But team management has more faith on bowlers than batsmen . So want bowlers to dominate.

Our pitches are now equivalent of SA where 350 in 1st innings is winning score 80% of time .
Bowlers win you games, ffs how is this so hard to understand? And it's not like they have no faith in batters either ffs.
 

Molehill

Cricketer Of The Year
Taking this back to Warne, would he have been as successful if he didn't also have the world's best batting line up creating huge scoreboard pressure as well?
 

Sunil1z

International Regular
Taking this back to Warne, would he have been as successful if he didn't also have the world's best batting line up creating huge scoreboard pressure as well?
India also had a decent batting line up in 2003-10.But Kumble wasn’t as good as Warne
 

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