‘The Warne’ factor

[Spark]

Or maybe the umpire, you know, missed the inside edge. Rather than being somehow hypnotised.

 

[Burgey]

Unless you fill your sides with quality 3-4 A/R in the lower order you're toast, coincidentally I like to pick A/R till even the last man at 11 in hypothetical combinations - so I guess I win

That’s exactly the opposite of what the side Warne played in did and they were one of the best test sides ever. Same with the West Indies in the 80s.

 

[Molehill]

He took a wicket every ten overs on average. It's not like he just took wickets for fun; he had to work for them.

OK, here's an interesting stat regarding DRS. " About 25% of all referrals are successful, 35% when the referral comes from the batsman, and 21% when the referral comes from the bowling team."

That suggests that umpires make more errors in favour of bowlers than they do for batsmen.

 

[R!TTER]

Yeah he missed the first ball plumb lbw for Langer & missed the 6cms thick inside edge, nothing to see here

Or maybe the umpire, you know, missed the inside edge. Rather than being somehow hypnotised.

 

[Spark]

OK, here's an interesting stat regarding DRS. " About 25% of all referrals are successful, 35% when the referral comes from the batsman, and 21% when the referral comes from the bowling team."

That suggests that umpires make more errors in favour of bowlers than they do for batsmen.

That's for fast bowlers and spinners though. IIRC LBWs have actually gotten significantly rarer for fast bowlers since DRS was introduced.

Yeah he missed the first ball plumb lbw for Langer & missed the 6cms thick inside edge, nothing to see here

Yes, umpires are human and make mistakes. It's not evidence of some conspiracy or that Warne had mind control powers. The DRS era shows that there are generally 3-4 obvious errors a game.

 

[Sunil1z]

I would request everyone to stop discussing Umpiring and DRS here . This thread has high possibility of getting derailed now .

 

[Spark]

I would request everyone to stop discussing Umpiring and DRS here . This thread has high possibility of getting derailed now .

It's by far the biggest change to the game for spinners since Warne's time though. I really do think it has made batting borderline impossible on certain pitches.

 

[R!TTER]

Who said anything about conspiracy but I gave you two crystal clear evidences of absolute howlers - going in favor of Oz. Are you going to backpedal now on how you didn't get more decisions in your favor? We also have SCG 2008 & a lot more such tests.

 

[Molehill]

That's for fast bowlers and spinners though. IIRC LBWs have actually gotten significantly rarer for fast bowlers since DRS was introduced.

Yes, umpires are human and make mistakes. It's not evidence of some conspiracy or that Warne had mind control powers.

Any stats to back that up?

Not questioning that umpires make mistakes. But the fact that batsmen are having more success overturning incorrect decisions than bowlers suggests Warne isn't likely to see his Test wickets jump from 708 to much more than 725.

 

[Spark]

Any stats to back that up?

Not questioning that umpires make mistakes. But the fact that batsmen are having more success overturning incorrect decisions than bowlers suggests Warne isn't likely to see his Test wickets jump from 708 to much more than 725.

Are umpires giving more lbws now than they did before the DRS?

Spinners may have a case to believe so, but fast bowlers? Not so much

www.espncricinfo.com

18% down to 14-15%. Pretty big drop-off. If I had to guess, I'd say it's because the stumps are "shorter" than umpires previously believed when quicks are bowling - there are a lot of plumb looking LBWs which end up going over the top.

 

[Starfighter]

Did you miss the Oz part? As for Warne or McGrath, check Sehwag's lbw in second innings when he middled it basically! Pretty clear how lot of so called neutral umpires were intimated by them especially Mcgrath's incessant appeals!

You know Harbhajan got a hat trick with one wicket pitching outside leg and taking a big inside edge? India did not have a reputation for unbiased or remotely competent umpiring prior to neutral umpires. (Going on recent form they still haven't got the competent part down).

Which is gonna have a bigger effect on an umpire in general, 'reputation' or 40,000 screaming home fans? (Hint, it's the latter).

 

[Sunil1z]

It's by far the biggest change to the game for spinners since Warne's time though. I really do think it has made batting borderline impossible on certain pitches.

I would blame players more than DRS .
Except maybe NZ , all the teams have gone backwards in terms of spin playing.

 

[Spark]

I would blame players more than DRS .
Except maybe NZ , all the teams have gone backwards in terms of spin playing.

That's certainly a factor too. But the thing is, part of it is that one core plank of defensive play on turning pitches is now completely unviable. You can no longer go down the pitch and play with your bat hidden behind the pad, covering the turn while your pad covers the line, because you'll be shot out LBW. That traditional technique of playing spin is now total suicide.

 

[Sunil1z]

Who said anything about conspiracy but I gave you two crystal clear evidences of absolute howlers - going in favor of Oz. Are you going to backpedal now on how you didn't get more decisions in your favor? We also have SCG 2008 & a lot more such tests.

Ok Enough . Please don’t discuss SCG 2008 here . Last thing I want is another Ind-Aus fight.

 

[R!TTER]

The theory is that while McWarne did create more opportunities than any other bowling pair in their time, they also benefited from lots of howlers & marginal decisions. While in general howlers may have cancelled themselves out the marginal decisions, or umpire's call going in favor of them didn't. That may have evened out in the post DRS era because the umpires would be less inclined to give the benefit of doubt to Aussie batters, especially away from home.

Another way to look at it is that - while I would still rate McWarne the highest in terms of all bowling pairs I've seen I don't rate the Aussie lineup away from home that highly. They benefited a lot from conservative neutral umpires & flat pitches. Oz would probably dominate a lot more at home, just like India, but also lot less away.

 

[Burgey]

So the consensus seems to be spinners are all getting more lbws with DRS but a bloke who took 708 test wickets bowling spin wouldn’t have got any benefit from it? Ok.

 

[Sunil1z]

That's certainly a factor too. But the thing is, part of it is that one core plank of defensive play on turning pitches is now completely unviable. You can no longer go down the pitch and play with your bat hidden behind the pad, covering the turn while your pad covers the line, because you'll be shot out LBW. That traditional technique of playing spin is now total suicide.

But Rohit , Pujara and Kohli average 50 on these tracks in same DRS era . Why do you think past great players wouldn’t have been successful?

Didn’t AUS in 2004 tour successfully neutralise Murali in SL , Kumble and Harbhajan ? They would have done OK on these type of tracks .

 

[Spark]

But Rohit , Pujara and Kohli average 50 on these tracks in same DRS era . Why do you think past great players wouldn’t have been successful?

Didn’t AUS in 2004 tour successfully neutralise Murali in SL , Kumble and Harbhajan ? They would have done OK on these type of tracks .

By "certain types of pitches" I mostly mean the sorts of pitches seen in India in the last four or five years. Some of them have been extremely difficult to bat on, for all involved, due to the threat of the straight ball pinning you LBW. Not impossible but beyond most Test batsmen.

EDIT: I believe Jarrod Kimber has just released a video on this exact topic though I haven't seen it yet.

 

[Starfighter]

The theory is that while McWarne did create more opportunities than any other bowling pair in their time, they also benefited from lots of howlers & marginal decisions.

You have no proof that they benefitted any more than any one else. This is simply you being an utter ********.

 

[Spark]

Reckon Simon Katich and Damien Martyn would have something to say about the idea that umpires had this general pro-Australian bias too.

We can all pull out isolated examples like we're football fans discussing some referee's howler. In the end there's no reason to believe neutral umpires favoured one team or another. Umpires just made mistakes, consistently. That's still the case with DRS.