Shane Warne vs Curtly Ambrose

[Sliferxxxx]

Imran is 5th best pacer for me, I have him after Steyn but ahead of Ambrose.

And he's the 3rd best cricketer!!

 

[Johan]

Sir Paddles for me

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Sir Paddles for me

That's not unreasonable at all.

 

[subshakerz]

And he's the 3rd best cricketer!!

Yes.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Yes.

Took you long enough.

 

[honestbharani]

I wrote at length about Imran's away record in multiple posts several years ago in a discussion very similar to this. I won't write it all again now as it's been said before (they're in the archives I'm sure for anyone who wants to look them up), but in summary I think there is a lot more context and nuance to it than simply a career away average of 25. For a long period of his career, Imran was spectacularly good away from home, against virtually everyone.

I have a feeling, from everything I have read about his bowling, that he was like a Pat Cummins of that era. Would that be an accurate description?

 

[Coronis]

I have a feeling, from everything I have read about his bowling, that he was like a Pat Cummins of that era. Would that be an accurate description?

Seems accurate statswise at least

Imran 19.20 home 25.76 away
Cummins 19.92 home 26.23 away

Cummins has played a higher number of home games.

 

[honestbharani]

Seems accurate statswise at least

Imran 19.20 home 25.76 away
Cummins 19.92 home 26.23 away

Cummins has played a higher number of home games.

Yeah but I meant more in terms of how he bowls. Very often bashes a good length, ball deviates just enough so can be devastating in sudden spells but can also be got after every now and then by batsmen and can be handled well by really defensive batsmen etc. Generally very consistent in the fact that he hardly has a bad series or even a completely bad game but prone to games where both unplayable and bad spells were thrown in together etc.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah but I meant more in terms of how he bowls. Very often bashes a good length, ball deviates just enough so can be devastating in sudden spells but can also be got after every now and then by batsmen and can be handled well by really defensive batsmen etc. Generally very consistent in the fact that he hardly has a bad series or even a completely bad game but prone to games where both unplayable and bad spells were thrown in together etc.

I'm not sure. He has a better ER than Marshall and Hadlee.

 

[subshakerz]

Seems accurate statswise at least

Imran 19.20 home 25.76 away
Cummins 19.92 home 26.23 away

Cummins has played a higher number of home games.

One reason his away average is slightly higher is partly age because he had an exceptionally longer career starting at 18 and going until 40 which affected the tailends in places like England and Aus.

Also in a couple of places he was unfortunate to get some really dead pitches in which nobody took wickets which spoiled his averages a bit. In NZ for example he played four tests, four dead draws and neither he nor Hadlee could do much. In India in 86/87 they prepared four non-result wickets and a rank turner to neutralise him after he did so well against them the past two series which is also why his India average is higher.

 

[Coronis]

I'm not sure. He has a better ER than Marshall and Hadlee.

That’s actually been Pat’s failing the past few years (from the India series onwards) and what may have been perceived as his decline. He’s striking as fast (or faster) as ever, but he’s been much looser. He’s also been bowling about 3 overs less per innings

Pre India 2023 ER 2.71 SR 46.9
India 2023 onwards ER 3.44 SR 44.6

(yes I know your post was about Imran just talking about Pat and ER here)

 

[subshakerz]

That’s actually been Pat’s failing the past few years (from the India series onwards) and what may have been perceived as his decline. He’s striking as fast (or faster) as ever, but he’s been much looser.

Pre India 2023 ER 2.71 SR 46.9
India 2023 onwards ER 3.44 SR 44.6

(yes I know your post was about Imran just talking about Pat and ER here)

I truly think his series in Ind and Eng were affected by his personal life somewhat since he was so out of sorts.

 

[sayon basak]

Took you long enough.

You said 3rd "best" cricketer. He wouldn't agree if you said 3rd "greatest" cricketer.

 

[subshakerz]

You said 3rd "best" cricketer. He wouldn't agree if you said 3rd "greatest" cricketer.

Correct.

 

[smash84]

Correct.

I still didn't quite understand your distinction between "greatest" and "best". All I remember is you describing it as "somewhat amorphous concept " which loosely translates to you "don't know ****".

 

[Coronis]

I still didn't quite understand your distinction between "greatest" and "best". All I remember is you describing it as "somewhat amorphous concept " which loosely translates to you "don't know ****".

Since this is something that has come up a few times recently and is an interesting topic I decided to save subz some time and I asked an AI. (the one I already had a cricket chat (namedrop) with)

What is the difference between greatest and best, in terms of athletes?

In the context of athletes, there's a nuanced difference between "greatest" and "best":


"Best" typically refers to peak performance, statistical achievements, and current skill level. It's more about immediate or technical prowess - who is currently the most skilled or performing at the highest level right now.


"Greatest" is a more comprehensive term that encompasses:

• Career achievements
• Long-term impact on the sport
• Historical significance
• Influence beyond just statistical performance
• Overcoming challenges
• Cultural and historical context
• Legacy and lasting influence

For example, in cricket:

• "Best" might be the current top-ranked player with the most recent impressive statistics
• "Greatest" would be someone like Sachin Tendulkar, who not only had incredible stats but transformed the sport in India, inspired generations, and had a massive cultural impact

In other sports, Michael Jordan is often considered the "greatest" basketball player, not just because of his skills, but because of how he changed the game, his global impact, and his cultural significance - even though current players might have better individual season stats.


So "greatest" is more about overall legacy and impact, while "best" is more about current or peak technical performance.

 

[smash84]

Since this is something that has come up a few times recently and is an interesting topic I decided to save subz some time and I asked an AI. (the one I already had a cricket chat (namedrop) with)

What is the difference between greatest and best, in terms of athletes?

In the context of athletes, there's a nuanced difference between "greatest" and "best":


"Best" typically refers to peak performance, statistical achievements, and current skill level. It's more about immediate or technical prowess - who is currently the most skilled or performing at the highest level right now.


"Greatest" is a more comprehensive term that encompasses:

• Career achievements
• Long-term impact on the sport
• Historical significance
• Influence beyond just statistical performance
• Overcoming challenges
• Cultural and historical context
• Legacy and lasting influence

For example, in cricket:

• "Best" might be the current top-ranked player with the most recent impressive statistics
• "Greatest" would be someone like Sachin Tendulkar, who not only had incredible stats but transformed the sport in India, inspired generations, and had a massive cultural impact

In other sports, Michael Jordan is often considered the "greatest" basketball player, not just because of his skills, but because of how he changed the game, his global impact, and his cultural significance - even though current players might have better individual season stats.


So "greatest" is more about overall legacy and impact, while "best" is more about current or peak technical performance.

So, going by the chatgpt definition, he essentially had it the other way around?

• Career achievements
• Long-term impact on the sport
• Historical significance
• Influence beyond just statistical performance
• Overcoming challenges
• Cultural and historical context
• Legacy and lasting influence

Seems to me that Imran ticks most of the boxes above ahead of Sachin?

 

[Coronis]

So, going by the chatgpt definition, he essentially had it the other way around?

• Career achievements
• Long-term impact on the sport
• Historical significance
• Influence beyond just statistical performance
• Overcoming challenges
• Cultural and historical context
• Legacy and lasting influence

Seems to me that Imran ticks most of the boxes above ahead of Sachin?

Heh. Now that is something definitely up for debate.

 

[smash84]

Heh. Now that is something definitely up for debate.

I don't disagree

 

[Johan]

Grace washes both of them or no