Shane Warne vs Curtly Ambrose

[kyear2]

I have to ask, do you agree with Subz that Sachin is a better/greater than Imran? And if yes why? Because it's clear as day to me than Imrans better.

So back to Imran, Smali just said he's the GOAT after Bradman.

I just presented the argument for Warne over him. Not even going to try to argue Sobers, because it's obvious to any one with any amount of objectively.

@subshakerz says he prefers to rate Imran between '74 and '88. This is as a bowler and an all rounder.

We've already covered his bowling numbers in neutral conditions, basically 25 with a s/r of 56. That's like Wash's career, actually a bit worse, but we digress.

Think we all also agree that Hadlee is easily the better bowler compared to Imran. Don't think that's controversial at all.

When we look at Imran's batting numbers during that time, again the period Subz has suggested, his average is 32 with a rpi of 27.

Hadlee, the much better bowler, has a batting average of 27, which breaks down to a rpi of 23.

4 runs with the bat is enough to over ride the bowling advantage that Hadlee has?

This argument where the 8th best bowler is somehow the 3rd best cricketer based on inflated lower order batting is wild to me.

 

[subshakerz]

Maybe he thinks that Imran would average 26/27 at home without bottlecaps.

By the way, Kyear just has a tendency to downplay Imran regardless of context.

Look at him in this thread. Averages 17 at home? 'Well that's ridiculous.'

Had a great series in WI and overall record against the no.1 side in the world? 'Well he dismissed too many tailenders'.

Was outstanding in World Series Cricket? 'Well that was too bowling friendly a series, let's ignore it.'

The above are literally his arguments. You can check.

 

[Coronis]

This argument where the 8th best bowler is somehow the 3rd best cricketer based on inflated lower order batting is wild to me.

And yet you tried to make an argument for Hammond vs Imran. You clearly value part time/5th bowler level higher than lower order batting. Some people don’t.

Some people also will have Imran higher than 8th. Something to also keep in mind. Slip fielding is also far bigger in your mind than anyone else’s. You know this! Stop trying to use it in arguments against people when you know it doesn’t really factor in for them! Its not going to get you anywhere.

“I don’t see how x can be above y when y has 3 skills and x has 2”

 

[DrWolverine]

Maybe he thinks that Imran would average 26/27 at home without bottlecaps.

If it is just records and performances, I would say Imran beats Ambrose.

But I have an issue with Imran because I think he may have cheated and Pakistan umpiring

 

[subshakerz]

If it is just records and performances, I would say Imran beats Ambrose.

But I have an issue with Imran because I think he may have cheated and Pakistan umpiring

At least you are honest about it.

 

[Coronis]

If it is just records and performances, I would say Imran beats Ambrose.

But I have an issue with Imran because I think he may have cheated and Pakistan umpiring

I have an issue with every bowler from the modern era.

Only bowlers from before that point are legit imo. They were too gentlemanly to tamper.

 

[subshakerz]

I have an issue with every bowler from the modern era.

Only bowlers from before that point are legit imo. They were too gentlemanly to tamper.

I mean this is a more consistent position.

Given that we know Hadlee, Holding, Kapil and others were all tamperers, there is no way their bowling records should be taken on face value. We should only take modern bowlers seriously when there was more scrutiny.

Or we just take all records at face value and not have double standards.

 

[kyear2]

No, I am not making this complicated at all. Imran's record against the bset team of his era is stellar. Heck, his WPM against the WI in WI is even more impressive than Ambrose's WPM against Australia in Australia. It's better than Steyn's performance against the best team of his era.

Can you remind me what Warne's performance is like against the best players of spin of his era?

So yeah, I don't see how he's behind Warne, given the criteria you are using.

You just want to hate on certain players for nothing and this shows.

This hate nonsense again.

Do you have Holding ahead of Warne, does that men's that you hate on him?

Do you rate Sobers ahead of Sachin, does that mean you're haring on him?

One one of 5 humans on earth who rates Imran ahead of Sobers, again, am I to assume you're hating on him?

Your arguments are getting worse.

 

[smash84]

This hate nonsense again.

Do you have Holding ahead of Warne, does that men's that you hate on him?

Do you rate Sobers ahead of Sachin, does that mean you're haring on him?

One one of 5 humans on earth who rates Imran ahead of Sobers, again, am I to assume you're hating on him?

Your arguments are getting worse.

Lol, I thought I had made the question idiot proof by putting it so simply. I guess not.

What is Warne's home and away record against the best players of spin?

 

[kyear2]

I used your simple criteria that you used to praise Ambrose to show how good Imran was. Now you shift your goal posts as usual, never giving a straight answer.

I asked you a simple question. You gave me your usual garbage. I'll ask again,

What did Warne average against the best spin playing team of his time?

So instead of responding to what I said, you try to create some totally niche and abstract scenario.

Warne struggled vs India, what does that have to do with being a better bowler overall?

Imran significantly underperformed with regards to his peers away from home in a way that's unprecedented among ATG bowlers.

Period.

Even bowlers I clearly rate above Imran, namely Ambrose and Steyn I have noted repeatedly that even for them it varies if they are before or after the two spinners. And I have Imran in a tier below those 4.

And I have better arguments to have them ahead of Warne than Imran.

So I don't see what the basis for your indignation comes from.

You're trying to tell me where I have to rate a player that even the forum as a whole, and not by a small margin rates below Warne.

 

[Coronis]

So instead of responding to what I said, you try to create some totally niche and abstract scenario.

Huh, never seen this before.

 

[smash84]

So instead of responding to what I said, you try to create some totally niche and abstract scenario.

Warne struggled vs India, what does that have to do with being a better bowler overall?

Imran significantly underperformed with regards to his peers away from home in a way that's unprecedented among ATG bowlers.

Period.

Even bowlers I clearly rate above Imran, namely Ambrose and Steyn I have noted repeatedly that even for them it varies if they are before or after the two spinners. And I have Imran in a tier below those 4.

And I have better arguments to have them ahead of Warne than Imran.

So I don't see what the basis for your indignation comes from.

You're trying to tell me where I have to rate a player that even the forum as a whole, and not by a small margin rates below Warne.

what does that have to do with being a better Bowler overall? That's what you ask me? Are you really that dumb or trying to act like one?

You just wrote a whole previous post praising Ambrose as being a great bowler because he was incredible against the greatest team of his era.


And now when Warne is terrible against India suddenly it doesn't matter? What kind of disingenuous **** is this?

 

[subshakerz]

Warne struggled vs India, what does that have to do with being a better bowler overall?

For the guys in the second or in-between tier, it is closer, but then I recalled Warne and Murali's record vs India, Murali vs Australia and what Lara did to both. I'll go with Imran on this one.

 

[subshakerz]

You just wrote a whole previous post praising Ambrose as being a great bowler because he was incredible against the greatest team of his era.

And now when Warne is terrible against India suddenly it doesn't matter? What kind of disingenuous **** is this?

He is totally full of it sadly. This is as blatant a contradiction as you can get.

 

[subshakerz]

Kyear on Imran vs Warne lol

You're trying to tell me where I have to rate a player that even the forum as a whole, and not by a small margin rates below Warne.

Surprised Warne winning this one. Warne vs India and how Lara took to him places him below the elite fast bowlers for me.

 

[akilana]

kyear, they're crying for your approval. just say what they want you to say so we can move on from this nonsense.

 

[smash84]

kyear, they're crying for your approval. just say what they want you to say so we can move on from this nonsense.

His approval? HELL NO.

More like calling him out on double standards.

 

[subshakerz]

kyear, they're crying for your approval. just say what they want you to say so we can move on from this nonsense.

Sounds like you are the one seeking his approval honestly.

 

[akilana]

His approval? HELL NO.

More like calling him out on double standards.

I didn't mean you. You're one of best posters.

 

[akilana]

Sounds like you are the one seeking his approval honestly.

The cap fits.. right?
You were begging him to remove you from ignore list. You also quoted him multiple times, hoping for approval.