Is Kapil Dev an ATG test cricketer?

[capt_Luffy]

Massive output and achievements yes agreed. And you include him generally in a team short of class pace or class batting but a conventional atg team he's not making. Let's use Pakistan as an example:

Saeed
Hanif
Younis
Javed
Inzi
Rizwan+
Imran*
Wasim
Waqar
Saqlain
Shoaib

Are you leaving out any of the above for Sir Ian?

He'd likely make it into SL, and India, NZ. He adds absolutely nothing to the RSA, WI or Australian XIs. England, including him at 6 diminishes their batting. As one of of the 4 bowlers maybe there isn't much of a gap their in retrospect, between him and rhe other seamers. So maybe he makes it into England's team as one of the 4 front line bowlers idk. He's not coming close to a Worldl XI so nope not an atg for me.

I would take Ian and Dev over Shoaib as a bowler purely. Like Shoaib even shouldn't make the Pak XI as it is, Mushtaq should.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I would take Ian and Dev over Shoaib as a bowler purely. Like Shoaib even shouldn't make the Pak XI as it is, Mushtaq should.

Ok that's fine he replaces Shoaib (I disagree) but like I said he'd make probably half the teams around but a world XI no. I know you naysayers will be like: " but Ambrose doesn't make a world XI either." To which I'd say he's on the very short list of fast bowlers that would and he wouldn't look out of place in one.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Ok that's fine he replaces Shoaib (I disagree) but like I said he'd make probably half the teams around but a world XI no. I know you naysayers will be like: " but Ambrose doesn't make a world XI either." To which I'd say he's on the very short list of fast bowlers that would and he wouldn't look out of place in one.

Like, I genuinely want to ask, what's the even argument for Shoaib over Botham or Kapil in a Pakistan AT XI?? Pakistan literally have a pretty mid batting unit by ATG standards with Imran batting at 7 and Rizwan at 6, and Shoaib arguably isn't even better than them purely as a bowler. At the very least, their bowling should be comparable, and as 5th bowler, Botham and Kapil providing an additional 30/35 runs in a mid batting order a no brainer.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Like, I genuinely want to ask, what's the even argument for Shoaib over Botham or Kapil in a Pakistan AT XI?? Pakistan literally have a pretty mid batting unit by ATG standards with Imran batting at 7 and Rizwan at 6, and Shoaib arguably isn't even better than them purely as a bowler. At the very least, their bowling should be comparable, and as 5th bowler, Botham and Kapil providing an additional 30/35 runs in a mid batting order a no brainer.

Or keep Pakistan conventional and go with 6 batsmen, a keeper and 4 front line bowlers:

Saeed
Hanif
Younis
Inzi
Javed
Yousuff
Rizwan+
Imran*
Wasim
Waqar
Saqlain

Batting and bowling are both good enough imo. If there's a situation or circumstance where Imran and co can't dismiss you, doubt Dev or Ian for one of the bowlers/batsmen would make any difference (in general).

 

[Northerner]

What is an all time great ? what is classed as an all time great ?, would Kapil be in an all time top 11 team. of course not, was he a great player ?, in my opinion he was. the first real pace bowler that India produced, taking a bucket load of wickets on the Indian pitches at that time was pretty impressive. his batting was a huge bonus, a genuine all rounder that i had the pleasure to watch.

 

[Johan]

Or keep Pakistan conventional and go with 6 batsmen, a keeper and 4 front line bowlers:

Saeed
Hanif
Younis
Inzi
Javed
Yousuff
Rizwan+
Imran*
Wasim
Waqar
Saqlain

Batting and bowling are both good enough imo. If there's a situation or circumstance where Imran and co can't dismiss you, doubt Dev or Ian for one of the bowlers/batsmen would make any difference (in general).

Yousuf is disgustingly out of position, batting is also extremely light for an AT XI

 

[capt_Luffy]

Or keep Pakistan conventional and go with 6 batsmen, a keeper and 4 front line bowlers:

Saeed
Hanif
Younis
Inzi
Javed
Yousuff
Rizwan+
Imran*
Wasim
Waqar
Saqlain

Batting and bowling are both good enough imo. If there's a situation or circumstance where Imran and co can't dismiss you, doubt Dev or Ian for one of the bowlers/batsmen would make any difference (in general).

Like you just had Shoaib out there. Botham and Kapil both provide you the perfect balance you need there. With 3 Pacers and one of them injury prone, you need a 5th option. And no one here can turn a hand even with any consistency. Ofcourse Botham and Kapil aren't as good bowlers, but they definitely are possible of very crucial breakthroughs, as well as even taking bunch of wickets on song. Moreover, reduce load on the 3 Pacers, letting them perform at their best. Frankly, I can't see a case for either of Yousuf or especially Shoaib over Botham or Kapil here.

 

[Johan]

I don't think Waqar is a given there either shrugs

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Like you just had Shoaib out there. Botham and Kapil both provide you the perfect balance you need there. With 3 Pacers and one of them injury prone, you need a 5th option. And no one here can turn a hand even with any consistency. Ofcourse Botham and Kapil aren't as good bowlers, but they definitely are possible of very crucial breakthroughs, as well as even taking bunch of wickets on song. Moreover, reduce load on the 3 Pacers, letting them perform at their best. Frankly, I can't see a case for either of Yousuf or especially Shoaib over Botham or Kapil here.

They really don't. Dev and Botham aren't doing anything bowling wise Waqar/Wasim/Imran can't do not even close. And speaking of Imran, Pakistan already has a great AR, two isnt close to be necessary. Ditto the batting.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I don't think Waqar is a given there either shrugs

Huh? Waqar makes Pakistans XI. Leaving him out is absurd ie until Pakistan finds a better 3rd seamer. Dev/Botham aren't close to him bowling wise.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Like you just had Shoaib out there. Botham and Kapil both provide you the perfect balance you need there. With 3 Pacers and one of them injury prone, you need a 5th option. And no one here can turn a hand even with any consistency. Ofcourse Botham and Kapil aren't as good bowlers, but they definitely are possible of very crucial breakthroughs, as well as even taking bunch of wickets on song. Moreover, reduce load on the 3 Pacers, letting them perform at their best. Frankly, I can't see a case for either of Yousuf or especially Shoaib over Botham or Kapil here.

Idk about you but in these atg scenarios I'm not think about injury. I'm assuming the player is fit and in reasonable form. Otherwise, India shouldn't even think about including Bumrah is there's....

 

[Coronis]

batting is also extremely light for an AT XI

This is a criticism you’d level at a team that someone has selected without making the batting as strong as possible so not sure why its being brought up? Nobody’s saying they’re the best

I don't think Waqar is a given there either shrugs

Uh so who are you replacing him with?

 

[Randomfan]

Dev has 300+ wickets at avg of 23-26 in WI/Aus/Ind.
Botham in Eng/Ind/Aus had 300 plus wickets at avg of 25-28

Both can add value to all time Pakistani XI in these venues as bowler and chip in with 25-30 runs. Outside of these venues, not sure if they really add value to Pakistani all time XI.

 

[capt_Luffy]

They really don't. Dev and Botham aren't doing anything bowling wise Waqar/Wasim/Imran can't do not even close. And speaking of Imran, Pakistan already has a great AR, two isnt close to be necessary. Ditto the batting.

I think you are severely underestimating Botham and Dev. Might as well leave Waqar and go with just Imran and Wasim since they can do everything he can. Two is necessary if you are making Imran bat at 7 especially, but well, Akhtar isn't even better than Botham and Dev as bowlers.

Idk about you but in these atg scenarios I'm not think about injury. I'm assuming the player is fit and in reasonable form. Otherwise, India shouldn't even think about including Bumrah is there's....

Breaking down mid game would still be an issue, as will be over bowling. With just 4 bowling options, it can turn ugly real soon. You need a 5th option really, and Yousuf isn't even a good fit for 6.
You made 2 teams. Firstly, had Akhtar there to get 5 bowling options forcing Imran to bat at 7, and he isn't even a better bowler than them before even going to the additional 30 run batting. And in the 2nd one, you added Yousuf, which just leaves you with no 5th bowling option, absolutely none. Over bowling your pacers might soon turned into a very serious problem there. Not to mention Kapil and Botham will be useless with the ball is just wrong. In the Pakistan All Time exercise, Mushtaq Mohammad close to unanimously made the team. Kapil and Botham are really no brainers here.

 

[subshakerz]

Massive output and achievements yes agreed. And you include him generally in a team short of class pace or class batting but a conventional atg team he's not making. Let's use Pakistan as an example:

Saeed
Hanif
Younis
Javed
Inzi
Rizwan+
Imran*
Wasim
Waqar
Saqlain
Shoaib

Are you leaving out any of the above for Sir Ian?

He'd likely make it into SL, and India, NZ. He adds absolutely nothing to the RSA, WI or Australian XIs. England, including him at 6 diminishes their batting. As one of of the 4 bowlers maybe there isn't much of a gap their in retrospect, between him and rhe other seamers. So maybe he makes it into England's team as one of the 4 front line bowlers idk. He's not coming close to a Worldl XI so nope not an atg for me.

Two different things, survivability for ATG side and value as a cricketer.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Two different things, survivability for ATG side and value as a cricketer.

That's true, but Ian will make the Pakistan XI very comfortably anyways.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

That's true, but Ian will make the Pakistan XI very comfortably anyways.

Over who? Seriously. And you having a 5th bowling option like Dev or Botham severely depleted Pakistans already scant batting options relative to other teams. Ok here goes:

Saeed
Hanif
Younis
Inzi
Javed
Rizwan+
Botham/Dev
Imran*
Wasim
Saqlain
Waqar

Really?? Vs let's pick a random atg team:

Smith*
Mitchell
Amla
Kallis
Pollock
Nourse
AB+
Pollock
Steyn
Donald
Tayfield

There's no comparison in the batting even with the addititon of Botham/Dev. Bowling is much of muchness again even with the addition of the Dev/Botham combo.

Fwiw, Dev and Botham are both greats no doubt about it but atg: Nah. I'd seriously question their spot in an all time world XI. That's one of my criteria for all time greatness.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I think you are severely underestimating Botham and Dev. Might as well leave Waqar and go with just Imran and Wasim since they can do everything he can. Two is necessary if you are making Imran bat at 7 especially, but well, Akhtar isn't even better than Botham and Dev as bowlers.

Breaking down mid game would still be an issue, as will be over bowling. With just 4 bowling options, it can turn ugly real soon. You need a 5th option really, and Yousuf isn't even a good fit for 6.
You made 2 teams. Firstly, had Akhtar there to get 5 bowling options forcing Imran to bat at 7, and he isn't even a better bowler than them before even going to the additional 30 run batting. And in the 2nd one, you added Yousuf, which just leaves you with no 5th bowling option, absolutely none. Over bowling your pacers might soon turned into a very serious problem there. Not to mention Kapil and Botham will be useless with the ball is just wrong. In the Pakistan All Time exercise, Mushtaq Mohammad close to unanimously made the team. Kapil and Botham are really no brainers here.

Pakistan already has an atg AR in Imran, including another like Dev or Ian makes absolutely no sense unless that other is great in one of their disciplines.

 

[subshakerz]

Over who? Seriously. And you having a 5th bowling option like Dev or Botham severely depleted Pakistans already scant batting options relative to other teams. Ok here goes:

Saeed
Hanif
Younis
Inzi
Javed
Rizwan+
Botham/Dev
Imran*
Wasim
Saqlain
Waqar

Really?? Vs let's pick a random atg team:

Smith*
Mitchell
Amla
Kallis
Pollock
Nourse
AB+
Pollock
Steyn
Donald
Tayfield

There's no comparison in the batting even with the addititon of Botham/Dev. Bowling is much of muchness again even with the addition of the Dev/Botham combo.

Fwiw, Dev and Botham are both greats no doubt about it but atg: Nah. I'd seriously question their spot in an all time world XI. That's one of my criteria for all time greatness.

This is sidetracking from us talking about Dev.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Over who? Seriously. And you having a 5th bowling option like Dev or Botham severely depleted Pakistans already scant batting options relative to other teams. Ok here goes:

Saeed
Hanif
Younis
Inzi
Javed
Rizwan+
Botham/Dev
Imran*
Wasim
Saqlain
Waqar

Really?? Vs let's pick a random atg team:

Smith*
Mitchell
Amla
Kallis
Pollock
Nourse
AB+
Pollock
Steyn
Donald
Tayfield

There's no comparison in the batting even with the addititon of Botham/Dev. Bowling is much of muchness again even with the addition of the Dev/Botham combo.

Fwiw, Dev and Botham are both greats no doubt about it but atg: Nah. I'd seriously question their spot in an all time world XI. That's one of my criteria for all time greatness.

Pakistan XI is not an All Time World XI. Without a 5th bowling option Pakistan will just suffer more and I honestly can't see much use for Yousuf at 8. This team with Rizwan at 6, Botham/Dev at 7 and Imran at 8 with Wasim at 9 has plenty of batting depth. I just don't see a point in trying to solidify the batting further with 6 batsmen, and not leaving yourself with a 5th option. And FTR, in the Pakistan All Time XI, Mushtaq Mohammad made the team almost uncontested.