Is Kapil Dev an ATG test cricketer?

[capt_Luffy]

Pakistan already has an atg AR in Imran, including another like Dev or Ian makes absolutely no sense unless that other is great in one of their disciplines.

You are going by the numbers here. If you count Imran as an AR, then you bat him at 7 in which case Shoaib/Fazal comes in, who simply are equal as bowlers and incomparable as bats. Or have Yousuf in top 6, then Imran is basically a bowler, you get the batting depth but have only 4 people capable of turning hands, for a batsman who isn't even a Great.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Pakistan XI is not an All Time World XI. Without a 5th bowling option Pakistan will just suffer more and I honestly can't see much use for Yousuf at 8. This team with Rizwan at 6, Botham/Dev at 7 and Imran at 8 with Wasim at 9 has plenty of batting depth. I just don't see a point in trying to solidify the batting further with 6 batsmen, and not leaving yourself with a 5th option. And FTR, in the Pakistan All Time XI, Mushtaq Mohammad made the team almost uncontested.

Ok so you have Mustaq and Imran. Still don't see the need for another AR.

I'm going to list off a few players I consider atgs:

McGrath, Hadlee, Marshall, Wasim, Sachin, Sobers, Lara, Ambrose, Steyn, Imran, Hammond, Gilchrist, Hobbs, Hutton, Warne, Murali, Sunil, etc. Those are a handful of who I consider atgs. Not one of them looks out of place in THE world XI. Ok pick a Sachin over Lara or a Hadlee over Ambrose but there's no discernable difference in class amongst these players. Dev as great as he was isnt in the same class as an AR. Who are you leaving out of a world XI not Indian not Pakistan XI but World....

 

[Sliferxxxx]

You are going by the numbers here. If you count Imran as an AR, then you bat him at 7 in which case Shoaib/Fazal comes in, who simply are equal as bowlers and incomparable as bats. Or have Yousuf in top 6, then Imran is basically a bowler, you get the batting depth but have only 4 people capable of turning hands, for a batsman who isn't even a Great.

If i count Imran as an AR? He is one. And a atg one at that. So why the need for another when you already have one?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Ok so you have Mustaq and Imran. Still don't see the need for another AR.

I'm going to list off a few players I consider atgs:

McGrath, Hadlee, Marshall, Wasim, Sachin, Sobers, Lara, Ambrose, Steyn, Imran, Hammond, Gilchrist, Hobbs, Hutton, Warne, Murali, Sunil, etc. Those are a handful of who I consider atgs. Not one of them looks out of place in THE world XI. Ok pick a Sachin over Lara or a Hadlee over Ambrose but there's no discernable difference in class amongst these players. Dev as great as he was isnt in the same class as an AR. Who are you leaving out of a world XI not Indian not Pakistan XI but World....

Not debating ATGs with you. You clearly have a different criteria than me, and a much more exclusive list, which is fair.

If Imran is playing in a 4 man attack, then he isn't playing as an AR, but simply a bowler. The need for an AR is mostly to have a 5th option. Imran being so good a bat just leaves you with more opportunities to take an AR

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Not debating ATGs with you. You clearly have a different criteria than me, and a much more exclusive list, which is fair.

If Imran is playing in a 4 man attack, then he isn't playing as an AR, but simply a bowler. The need for an AR is mostly to have a 5th option. Imran being so good a bat just leaves you with more opportunities to take an AR

Umm Imran is playing as an all rounder as he did when he actually played. And I'm just going to throw this out there, imo picking 5th bowling option is fine, provided that your overall batting is strong enough relative to other teams.

Just so we're clear again. Dev/Ian are great and would make a few all time teams for various reasons: SL, NZ, India, and possibly England (in retrospect) because England do have an immense top 5 batting wise and outside of Trueman and Barnes their pace bowlers aren't leagues above Sir Ian. But atg they aren't imo.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Umm Imran is playing as an all rounder as he did when he actually played. And I'm just going to throw this out there, imo picking 5th bowling option is fine, provided that your overall batting is strong enough relative to other teams.

Just so we're clear again. Dev/Ian are great and would make a few all time teams for various reasons: SL, NZ, India, and possibly England (in retrospect) because England do have an immense top 5 batting wise and outside of Trueman and Barnes their pace bowlers aren't leagues above Sir Ian. But atg they aren't imo.

Not Playing as an AR in the sense batting at 8 and there are 4 bowling options, the reason ARs is to have the 5th one. Rizwan - Akram at 6 to 9 is sufficient depth imho. I respect that we differ, but I think the existence of Imran if anything makes them and automatic choice, not an after thought.

 

[subshakerz]

Kapil would be too valuable a cricketer to drop in a Pakistani ATG XI which means the following:

Anwar
Hanif
Younis
Miandad
Inzi
Rizwan
Imran
Kapil
Wasim
Waqar
Saqlain

Yes batting gets weaker but you have more depth. Anyone seriously thinking Kapil is getting benched is deluding themselves.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

If Imran is playing in a 4 man attack, then he isn't playing as an AR, but simply a bowler.

What? That makes no sense.

 

[subshakerz]

The need for an AR is mostly to have a 5th option.

Not necessarily. Also to have lower order batting strength.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Kapil would be too valuable a cricketer to drop in a Pakistani ATG XI which means the following:

Anwar
Hanif
Younis
Miandad
Inzi
Rizwan
Imran
Kapil
Wasim
Waqar
Saqlain

Yes batting gets weaker but you have more depth. Anyone seriously thinking Kapil is getting benched is deluding themselves.

Why not pick Mushtaq Mohammed at 6/7 with Rizwan and Imran at 8. Get a legspinner instead of a swing bowler.

 

[capt_Luffy]

What? That makes no sense.

Not necessarily. Also to have lower order batting strength.

In the sense he is counting Imran an AR, but he would make the team as a bowler anyways and the line-up of his won't change.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Why not pick Mushtaq Mohammed at 6/7 with Rizwan and Imran at 8. Get a legspinner instead of a swing bowler.

Counter point: You think Kapil don't make NZ XI, so it's quite different how we rate Kapil.

 

[Coronis]

Over who? Seriously. And you having a 5th bowling option like Dev or Botham severely depleted Pakistans already scant batting options relative to other teams. Ok here goes:

Saeed
Hanif
Younis
Inzi
Javed
Rizwan+
Botham/Dev
Imran*
Wasim
Saqlain
Waqar

Really?? Vs let's pick a random atg team:

Smith*
Mitchell
Amla
Kallis
Pollock
Nourse
AB+
Pollock
Steyn
Donald
Tayfield

There's no comparison in the batting even with the addititon of Botham/Dev. Bowling is much of muchness again even with the addition of the Dev/Botham combo.

Fwiw, Dev and Botham are both greats no doubt about it but atg: Nah. I'd seriously question their spot in an all time world XI. That's one of my criteria for all time greatness.

I don’t know why you’d compare them with SA.

In ATG XI terms is pretty clear for me - you have Aus/Windies/SA, SA/England, Pakistan/India, NZ/SL, Ban/Zim as the tiers, competitors against one another. (SA kinda straddles the first two groups I feel) Realistically they don’t have the players to consistently compete against the top 4, they should be compared to India. In that case, India is always gonna win out on the batting. Pakistan should probably try and focus as much as they can on their bowling advantage tbh.

 

[The Sean]

Over who? Seriously. And you having a 5th bowling option like Dev or Botham severely depleted Pakistans already scant batting options relative to other teams. Ok here goes:

Saeed
Hanif
Younis
Inzi
Javed
Rizwan+
Botham/Dev
Imran*
Wasim
Saqlain
Waqar

Really?? Vs let's pick a random atg team:

Smith*
Mitchell
Amla
Kallis
Pollock
Nourse
AB+
Pollock
Steyn
Donald
Tayfield

There's no comparison in the batting even with the addititon of Botham/Dev. Bowling is much of muchness again even with the addition of the Dev/Botham combo.

Fwiw, Dev and Botham are both greats no doubt about it but atg: Nah. I'd seriously question their spot in an all time world XI. That's one of my criteria for all time greatness.

No one thinks Pakistan's all time XI is as good as South Africa's. But how does replacing Botham/Dev there with Mushtaq, MoYo or Shoaib make them more competitive?

Given they are already behind on batting, five world class bowlers will give them a better chance at taking 20 wickets than four will, and Botham/Dev will contribute some runs with it.

 

[The Sean]

I don’t know why you’d compare them with SA.

In ATG XI terms is pretty clear for me - you have Aus/Windies/SA, SA/England, Pakistan/India, NZ/SL, Ban/Zim as the tiers, competitors against one another. (SA kinda straddles the first two groups I feel) Realistically they don’t have the players to consistently compete against the top 4, they should be compared to India. In that case, India is always gonna win out on the batting. Pakistan should probably try and focus as much as they can on their bowling advantage tbh.

Agree with all this, with the caveat that I remain one of the very few who still thinks that England might well beat South Africa in the 3rd place play-off.

 

[subshakerz]

No one thinks Pakistan's all time XI is as good as South Africa's. But how does replacing Botham/Dev there with Mushtaq, MoYo or Shoaib make them more competitive?

Given they are already behind on batting, five world class bowlers will give them a better chance at taking 20 wickets than four will, and Botham/Dev will contribute some runs with it.

Agreed. Kapil is simply too valuable an AR package for a side like Pakistan to drop.

 

[sayon basak]

Counter point: You think Kapil don't make NZ XI, so it's quite different how we rate Kapil.

Wut?

 

[Johan]

Why not pick Mushtaq Mohammed at 6/7 with Rizwan and Imran at 8. Get a legspinner instead of a swing bowler.

Mushtaq has 79 wickets in 57 games, only bowls 68 balls too and has 3 fifers in 70 innings. Not a better Cricketer than Botham.

 

[subshakerz]

Mushtaq has 79 wickets in 57 games, only bowls 68 balls too and has 3 fifers in 70 innings. Not a better Cricketer than Botham.

And a way worse bowler than Kapil while only a notably better bat.

 

[Coronis]

Agree with all this, with the caveat that I remain one of the very few who still thinks that England might well beat South Africa in the 3rd place play-off.

Its sort of a bit similar to Ind/Pak in that one team has clearly superior batting and one clearly superior bowling. Plus I feel these two have a fair bit of variation in both batting and bowling lineups.