No 1 fast bowlers in last 50 years

[Sliferxxxx]

That's because he played alongside Hadlee, Imran, Garner, Holding and Ambrose

Very true. Only Rabada and Cummins as of now can be considered in the great class (others haven't played enough). The difference being, that the fast bowlers of Maco's time were generally great home and away overall. Only Bumrah now is amazing home and away like those from the 80s (Imran excepted).

 

[Johan]

I'm still not convinced Bumrah is above Garner

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

If all Bumrah can manage is 300 Test wickets (or just a few more) in this day and age, that is telling you that he has issues which should preclude him from unanimous consideration as the GOAT bowler. How many career Test wickets do you think Marshall, McGrath and Hadlee would be able to get these days? A lot more than 300 each and that means they would probably be of a lot more value to their teams because they would also be getting those wickets quite cheaply.

I would have a hard time ranking Bumrah ahead of Hadlee no matter what he does in the future (unless some amazing transformation occurs). Equal? - maybe, but ahead? - not likely. Hadlee was able to sustain a massive workload for a very long time while bowling at a very high level which is something that Bumrah is not even remotely able to do and that is very unlikely to change in the future. Those attributes of Hadlee's are not something minor but rather, something very important and Bumrah is lacking those attributes. So even if Bumrah's quality of bowling is slightly better, he will be missing important attributes which Hadlee had in abundance. How can Bumrah possibly be the undisputed GOAT bowler with such deficiencies? Do you think that a bowler who's a glass cannon compared to other bowlers is better than those other bowlers when those other bowlers are far more robust and can also bowl at an exceedingly high level? Don't you think those other bowlers would be able to contribute more to their teams long-term than Bumrah and don't you think that's important in evaluating the greatness of a bowler?

Here's Hadlee's record for his last 12 years 5 months against non-minnow competition (before this, he was an amateur cricketer; when Bumrah started playing Test cricket, he had already been a professional cricketer for about five years, having joined the IPL in 2013):

View attachment 45080

Workload for 12 years 5 months: 155 balls/innings! Worked to death and still averaging 20.9 against top teams.

Availability: incl. SL: 69 Tests/75 = 92%, excluding SL: 63/69 = 91.3% (high availability will help his team)

Now Bumrah last year when he was starting to fall apart at the seams towards the end:

View attachment 45081

Workload for ONE year: 82 balls/innings.

Availability so far: 45/71 = 63.4%

Bumrah's bowling record for last year's Australian tour before he broke down (first four Tests):



Workload: 106 balls/innings

 

[Coronis]

He is equally good even now just pitted against bumrah who is just better. This decade its close like Marshall vs hadlee

Not really. Cummins since the Saffa tour here in 22/23 (and we all know how fun that series was):

20 matches 80 wickets @ 25.61

in that same time period..

Bumrah 15 matches 77 wickets @ 15.09
Henry 12 matches 65 @ 20.32
Rabada 12 matches 59 @ 18.15
Hazlewood 13 matches 57 @ 19.68

 

[kyear2]

Donald. Imran. Akram. Lillee. Holding. Maybe I will add Garner too. But he was mostly a support bowler.

Yes, definitely Holding as well.

 

[kyear2]

Tells more about the peers than anything.

This

 

[kyear2]

Bumrah's bowling record for last year's Australian tour before he broke down (first four Tests):

View attachment 45084

Workload: 106 balls/innings

Yeah, durability definitely needs to be part of his overall evaluation as well.

Managing workloads hasn't been a thing before for the great ones.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

90s Wasim Akram

 

[Coronis]

Yeah, durability definitely needs to be part of his overall evaluation as well.

Managing workloads hasn't been a thing before for the great ones.

Yeah that’s what, an average of 17.4 overs per innings. Over his entire career he averages 16.4 overs per innings. Overbowling him is apparently still below an average career for every ATG pacer. (except Waqar and also his contemporary Rabada)

 

[Randomfan]

Test focused players vs 3 format bowlers.

For example, Anderson was test specialist. That's what he focused and played. Same way, not sure how many in 80s took ODI's seriously. In 90s, most took test and ODI seriously. Now it has transtioned to T20/ODI tournaments and tests when it come to players taking it seriously. Even then not all bowlers actually play and are good in all 3 formats.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Yeah, durability definitely needs to be part of his overall evaluation as well.

Managing workloads hasn't been a thing before for the great ones.

Bumrah appears to be another great one (I still need a few more years from him) but I can't put him ahead of the other great ones because of this durability issue. He could join them on Mount Rushmore but I can't see him sitting alone at the summit of Mount Everest.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Bumrah appears to be another great one (I still need a few more years from him) but I can't put him ahead of the other great ones because of this durability issue. He could join them on Mount Rushmore but I can't see him sitting alone at the summit of Mount Everest.

So on Mount Rushmore we could have:

G = Marshall
O = McGrath
A = Hadlee
T = Bumrah

It would probably be a mountain goat!

 

[capt_Luffy]

So on Mount Rushmore we could have:

G = Marshall
O = McGrath
A = Hadlee
T = Bumrah

It would probably be a mountain goat!

Honestly I won't consider Bumrah better than Steyn, Ambrose or Imran until he gets 300+ scalps atleast at a similar record.

 

[Qlder]

Tbf Maco took 376 @20. But yeah, I agree that he'll be in the same tier with Maco/Pigeon/Hadlee if he gets there.

When did "Maco" become a nickname for Marshall? Ridiculous!

 

[sayon basak]

When did "Maco" become a nickname for Marshall? Ridiculous!

It's easier to write Maco than Marshall tbh. Don't find calling Marshall "Maco" ridiculous.

 

[Qlder]

It's easier to write Maco than Marshall tbh. Don't find calling Marshall "Maco" ridiculous.

Definitely ridiculous as no-one ever called him that.

 

[kyear2]

So on Mount Rushmore we could have:

G = Marshall
O = McGrath
A = Hadlee
T = Bumrah

It would probably be a mountain goat!

Steyn (or Ambrose, though I lean Steyn) is still there for me. He needs to hit 300 to get there.

 

[sayon basak]

Oh I forgot I was in the comparison forum where people just make things up and state it as fact all the time...

Tbh I forgot you were Qlder.

 

[Randomfan]

For top 5 , Bumrah needs 300+ wickets. Similar class, but not the similar career yet.

Going ahead of IK, 250+ wickets clears it comfortably given IK away record. You don't need to match longevity if your output is at a different level.

Above logic only works if Bumrah is doing well for his next 50-100 wickets. It's actually not given that he will take next 50-100 wickets cheaply. It looks easy when a great bowler is in top form, but it's never easy to keep doing it.

 

[Randomfan]

To put it in persepctive, how hard it has been to do well for 100 away wickets and 175 over all wickets with with sub 25 avg against non-minnows. Not bothering to filter out SL pre 95 period here.

Pacers with 100 away wickets with sub 25 avg against non-minnows: Only 11 pacers





Home and away with sub 25 avg with 175+ wickets against non-minnows: 19 pacers



Only 10 pacers are in the both lists.

It's hard despite some great bowlers making it look easy for some period. That's why I don't think it's given that Bumrah will keep picking the next 50-100 wickets cheaply and quickly.

One thing is going for him here. He can pick next 50-100 wickets at a much higher avg and still he will have career avg of 21-22. That's in the same range as the top 4-5 in history away and over all both. Not that simply avg means everything. His SR is outstanding as well, so plenty of room.