No 1 fast bowlers in last 50 years

[kyear2]

Need to also Smith remove from BAB convos then

Unlike others who did. Did ball tampering impact Smith's batting?

 

[Thala_0710]

Unlike others who did. Did ball tampering impact Smith's batting?

No it didn't, but if cheating in his case doesn't affect his rating, it shouldn't affect in Asif's case either. Infact, if you believe that he is bowling worse due to match fixing, you actually believe he was a better bowler than his performances, which were still pretty damn good! If anything, that must mean Asif should be even higher rated.

 

[peterhrt]

It basically transitioned from Lillee to Marshall.

In 1981 and 1982 combined West Indies only played seven Tests, against England and Australia. Michael Holding took 41 wickets at an average of 16. Dubbed "The Rolls Royce of Fast Bowlers", he was considered by many to be the world's best at this time. He was certainly the fastest.

 

[kyear2]

In 1981 and 1982 combined West Indies only played seven Tests, against England and Australia. Michael Holding took 41 wickets at an average of 16. Dubbed "The Rolls Royce of Fast Bowlers", he was considered by many to be the world's best at this time. He was certainly the fastest.

I said in another thread that Holding as an argument to be seen as great as Lillee, it was just the injuries a d lack of availability.

I definitely have him as an ATG and in that Imran, Donald, Lillee, Wasim group.

 

[DrWolverine]

I definitely have him as an ATG and in that Imran, Donald, Lillee, Wasim group.

Donald. Imran. Akram. Lillee. Holding. Maybe I will add Garner too. But he was mostly a support bowler.

 

[sayon basak]

2nd greatest.?
Not sure 300 wickets is enough to put him above McGrath and Marshal.

He would still be in the same tier as Marshall/McGrath/Hadlee imo, not necessarily ahead of them.

 

[DrWolverine]

He would still be in the same tier as Marshall/McGrath/Hadlee imo, not necessarily ahead of them.

What do you think Bumrah needs to do to go ahead of them in your opinion?

 

[sayon basak]

No it didn't, but if cheating in his case doesn't affect his rating, it shouldn't affect in Asif's case either. Infact, if you believe that he is bowling worse due to match fixing, you actually believe he was a better bowler than his performances, which were still pretty damn good! If anything, that must mean Asif should be even higher rated.

Tbh Asif doesn't have an impressive statistics for a 5 year career. He was just a bowler who could seam the ball a lot.


Tbh Mustafiz had a more impressive off cutter in his prime days. Could cut the ball back in from 4th/5th stump at 140 kmph.

 

[sayon basak]

What do you think Bumrah needs to do to go ahead of them in your opinion?

Just play the exact same way for 2 more years.

Edit:- oh I didn't realize you asked what he needs to do to get past them. That'll be very hard imo. I'd say pick 350+ wickets @20 playing 4 more years, but that's near impossible.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Tbh Asif doesn't have an impressive statistics for a 5 year career. He was just a bowler who could seam the ball a lot.


Tbh Mustafiz had a more impressive off cutter in his prime days. Could cut the ball back in from 4th/5th stump at 140 kmph.

That's Naveed Ul Hasan

 

[DrWolverine]

Just play the exact same way for 2 more years.

Edit:- oh I didn't realize you asked what he needs to do to get past them. That'll be very hard imo. I'd say pick 350+ wickets @20 playing 4 more years, but that's near impossible.

If he played at the same way and gets 300+ wickets at 20, that’s enough for me to put him on par with Maco for me.

 

[Rob Wesley]

70s - Lillee, Roberts, Botham(debut-79)
80s - Marshall, Hadlee, IK
90s - Ambrose, Wasim, Donald
00s - McGrath, Steyn, Akhtar
10s - Steyn, Anderson, Rabada
20s(1st half)- Bumrah, Cummins, Rabada

That’s top 3 for each decade. Few big names that are missing are:-

Mid 70s- mid 80s - Joel Garner, Michael Holding
90s - Waqar, McGrath, Pollock, Walsh, Bishop

That’s a huge number in 1990s.

 

[sayon basak]

If he played at the same way and gets 300+ wickets at 20, that’s enough for me to put him on par with Maco for me.

Tbf Maco took 376 @20. But yeah, I agree that he'll be in the same tier with Maco/Pigeon/Hadlee if he gets there.

 

[DrWolverine]

Tbf Maco took 376 @20.

Maco was not as ahead of his peers like Bumrah is now.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Maco was not as ahead of his peers like Bumrah is now.

That's because he played alongside Hadlee, Imran, Garner, Holding and Ambrose

 

[DrWolverine]

That’s a huge number in 1990s.

In 1974-1989 WI produced so many great pacers - Roberts. Croft. Marshall. Holding. Garner. Ambrose. Walsh. Bishop.

 

[sayon basak]

Maco was not as ahead of his peers like Bumrah is now.

Tells more about the peers than anything.

 

[DrWolverine]

That's because he played alongside Hadlee, Imran, Garner, Holding and Ambrose

Tells more about the peers than anything.

So the same logic should apply to Dale Steyn as well?

 

[sayon basak]

So the same logic should apply to Dale Steyn as well?

Don't forget to take pitches into account as well.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

If he played at the same way and gets 300+ wickets at 20, that’s enough for me to put him on par with Maco for me.

If all Bumrah can manage is 300 Test wickets (or just a few more) in this day and age, that is telling you that he has issues which should preclude him from unanimous consideration as the GOAT bowler. How many career Test wickets do you think Marshall, McGrath and Hadlee would be able to get these days? A lot more than 300 each and that means they would probably be of a lot more value to their teams because they would also be getting those wickets quite cheaply.

I would have a hard time ranking Bumrah ahead of Hadlee no matter what he does in the future (unless some amazing transformation occurs). Equal? - maybe, but ahead? - not likely. Hadlee was able to sustain a massive workload for a very long time while bowling at a very high level which is something that Bumrah is not even remotely able to do and that is very unlikely to change in the future. Those attributes of Hadlee's are not something minor but rather, something very important and Bumrah is lacking those attributes. So even if Bumrah's quality of bowling is slightly better, he will be missing important attributes which Hadlee had in abundance. How can Bumrah possibly be the undisputed GOAT bowler with such deficiencies? Do you think that a bowler who's a glass cannon compared to other bowlers is better than those other bowlers when those other bowlers are far more robust and can also bowl at an exceedingly high level? Don't you think those other bowlers would be able to contribute more to their teams long-term than Bumrah and don't you think that's important in evaluating the greatness of a bowler?

Here's Hadlee's record for his last 12 years 5 months against non-minnow competition (before this, he was an amateur cricketer; when Bumrah started playing Test cricket, he had already been a professional cricketer for about five years, having joined the IPL in 2013):



Workload for 12 years 5 months: 155 balls/innings! Worked to death and still averaging 20.9 against top teams.

Availability: incl. SL: 69 Tests/75 = 92%, excluding SL: 63/69 = 91.3% (high availability will help his team)

Now Bumrah last year when he was starting to fall apart at the seams towards the end:



Workload for ONE year: 82 balls/innings.

Availability so far: 45/71 = 63.4%