Johan
International Vice-Captain
nothing, just born in the same generation as Shane Warne.
-
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Brian Lara vs Ricky Ponting (against pace bowling)
- Thread starter Johan
- Start date
Sliferxxxx
U19 Debutant
Lara vs NZ can be explained by ONE horrendous series at the end of his career vs a rampant Shane Bond.
@Sliferxxxx
Just the amount of time Lara had, to play those high pace deliveries, makes it look like a joke that he is a suspect against pace.
On the other hand, you can also find several examples of him looking extremely vulnerable, like a cat on a hit tin roof, totally rushed for time, totally incapable of handling pace (@subshakerz goes out of his way to post and repost such examples).
If Lara were as weak against pace as it is constantly iterated here, it is very unlikely he would have even broken into the West Indies team at the time he did (in late 80s and early 90s). Back then, for a top-order batsman, coming through the West Indies domestic cricket was like being forged by fire. Every West Indies first class side had great fast bowlers and there was no escape - especially for a top-order batsman whose only skill was batting (unlike say Carl Hooper or Gomes or even Viv - all of whom were useful and effective bowlers).
I have a good example regarding this from Ambrose's book. Talking about a specific match between Leeward Islands (Viv Richards, Richie Richardson, Ambrose, Winston Benjamin) and Barbados (Greenidge, Haynes, Marshall, Garner) in 1988, Ambrose writes:
"Barbados had a rich legacy and they were so greatly respected throughout the region that they became the team everyone wanted to beat and I was no different. As soon as I played for Leeward Islands, victory over Barbados was as important to me as anything. I had it in my head that they were such great cricketers and I wanted to beat them to show that we are as good as they are. So that win against Barbados in 1988 was very special and very satisfying. It was like a mini Test match. Viv led from the front scoring 70, Richie Richardson scored 176 while opening the batting against Marshall and Garner, the cricket was just insane. They knew he liked to hook so they peppered him with short balls - and Richie, like Viv, never wore a helmet back then - but he came back at them with some serious hook shots, pull shots and cuts. The intensity in our domestic cricket in those days was absolutely incredible, and had a knock-on effect into the West Indies team, and vice versa. There was no mercy, as far too much pride and so many bragging rights were at stake. I even bowled bouncers at Garner and Marshall, which stirred the Barbados crowd - 'Boy, who's this rookie, who thinks he can bowl bouncers at Garner and Marshall and get away with it?! He's gonna get it now!' I actually had Garner caught by Viv at slip off a bouncer. And when I bounced Marshall, he told me to be ready because he will return the favor when it was my turn to bat. It was serious serious business".
There were plenty of Lara's first class innings from back then against great pace attacks which are on-par in greatness with any great Test innings. Like for example, Lara's 90-odd in January 1988 against Marshall and Garner on a pitch with uneven bounce. Both Holding and Marshall were extremely impressed by that knock. Similarly Lara's 122* against Jamaica (against Walsh & Patterson), the next highest score in Lara's team was just 21. To me one of Lara's best first-class innings though was the 70-odd he got against Leeward Islands captained by Viv in 1991 against an attack of Ambrose, Kenneth Benjamin, Winston Benjamin and Eldine Baptiste (each of these 4 pacers played at least 15 Tests as a part of the WIPQ for the West Indies in their career), once again the next highest score, after Lara's, was just 24.
@Sliferxxxx
As I said earlier, it is very difficult to categorize Lara's batting. You can pick several valid examples to support whatever claim you want to make about his batting. You can find several examples of him handling 150 kmph deliveries in Test match cricket with absolute authority.
Just the amount of time Lara had, to play those high pace deliveries, makes it look like a joke that he is a suspect against pace.
On the other hand, you can also find several examples of him looking extremely vulnerable, like a cat on a hit tin roof, totally rushed for time, totally incapable of handling pace (@subshakerz goes out of his way to post and repost such examples).
If Lara were as weak against pace as it is constantly iterated here, it is very unlikely he would have even broken into the West Indies team at the time he did (in late 80s and early 90s). Back then, for a top-order batsman, coming through the West Indies domestic cricket was like being forged by fire. Every West Indies first class side had great fast bowlers and there was no escape - especially for a top-order batsman whose only skill was batting (unlike say Carl Hooper or Gomes or even Viv - all of whom were useful and effective bowlers).
I have a good example regarding this from Ambrose's book. Talking about a specific match between Leeward Islands (Viv Richards, Richie Richardson, Ambrose, Winston Benjamin) and Barbados (Greenidge, Haynes, Marshall, Garner) in 1988, Ambrose writes:
"Barbados had a rich legacy and they were so greatly respected throughout the region that they became the team everyone wanted to beat and I was no different. As soon as I played for Leeward Islands, victory over Barbados was as important to me as anything. I had it in my head that they were such great cricketers and I wanted to beat them to show that we are as good as they are. So that win against Barbados in 1988 was very special and very satisfying. It was like a mini Test match. Viv led from the front scoring 70, Richie Richardson scored 176 while opening the batting against Marshall and Garner, the cricket was just insane. They knew he liked to hook so they peppered him with short balls - and Richie, like Viv, never wore a helmet back then - but he came back at them with some serious hook shots, pull shots and cuts. The intensity in our domestic cricket in those days was absolutely incredible, and had a knock-on effect into the West Indies team, and vice versa. There was no mercy, as far too much pride and so many bragging rights were at stake. I even bowled bouncers at Garner and Marshall, which stirred the Barbados crowd - 'Boy, who's this rookie, who thinks he can bowl bouncers at Garner and Marshall and get away with it?! He's gonna get it now!' I actually had Garner caught by Viv at slip off a bouncer. And when I bounced Marshall, he told me to be ready because he will return the favor when it was my turn to bat. It was serious serious business".
There were plenty of Lara's first class innings from back then against great pace attacks which are on-par in greatness with any great Test innings. Like for example, Lara's 90-odd in January 1988 against Marshall and Garner on a pitch with uneven bounce. Both Holding and Marshall were extremely impressed by that knock. Similarly Lara's 122* against Jamaica (against Walsh & Patterson), the next highest score in Lara's team was just 21. To me one of Lara's best first-class innings though was the 70-odd he got against Leeward Islands captained by Viv in 1991 against an attack of Ambrose, Kenneth Benjamin, Winston Benjamin and Eldine Baptiste (each of these 4 pacers played at least 15 Tests as a part of the WIPQ for the West Indies in their career), once again the next highest score, after Lara's, was just 24.
@Sliferxxxx
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PlayerComparisons
International Captain
Both Lara and Ponting were undoubtedly truly great players of pace
Dravid, Root, and Miandad are probably examples of great players that weren’t top tier against pace (brilliant against spin though)
Dravid, Root, and Miandad are probably examples of great players that weren’t top tier against pace (brilliant against spin though)
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Sliferxxxx
U19 Debutant
Check this one out:
I'm glad to see someone aware of Lara's exploits vs pace in WI 1st class cricket. That innings was mental and against a decent 1st class attack.
I'm glad to see someone aware of Lara's exploits vs pace in WI 1st class cricket. That innings was mental and against a decent 1st class attack.
Yes, I remeber this innings from Lara against Walsh & Franklyn Rose. Lara scored 180 out of a team total of 257! Absolutely insane.
In this innings, Lara hit a huge 6 off Walsh
Johan
International Vice-Captain
"Pace" is kind of a vague term in the manner you use it. I would say Ponting plays express pace better than all but his ability against movement is being grossly overstated, Root and Dravid play the general movement a fast bowler can cause on a different level than Ponting was able to. Lara was adept against all kinds of bowling but his ability against express pace is often questioned but it seems to be answered in this thread and it doesn't seem he struggled with it outside of a small patch 1996-2000.
Miandad, respectfully not in the conversation.
Johan
International Vice-Captain
When Lara gets going... there's really none better.
Sliferxxxx
U19 Debutant
Lol in some of those early innings in the WI Lara isn't even wearing a helmet, then for others he wears a helmet sans the grill. Don't when he started having eye issues....
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Lara wasn't weak against pace in the beginning. Only after he developed his eye issue in 94.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Not true. Eng Ashes quartet in particular Flintoff and Harmison, Bond in NZ gave him issues in the 2000s. He didn't face Shoaib much but got retired hurt by a bouncer from him in 2004.
centurymaker
Cricketer Of The Year
your reflexes tend to be better when you are young.
Lara faced a lot of Lee, who was one of the fastest bowlers ever (in the same category as Shoaib).
Many of the shots that he played in Test innings against Lee, especially the pull shots - in front of square - off the 150 kmph deliveries, pretty much impossible for someone weak against pace to do it.
What makes it even more amazing (in the context of reflexes) is, Lara had both his feet outside the batting crease, and Lee was no-balling
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I think the argument is against quality pace and Lee was below that standard.
So Shoaib (in an ODI match) is quality pace, and Lee in a Test match is below quality pace?
This is getting beyond absurd.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Why is that absurd? Shoaib was an excellent ODI bowler. Was Lee an excellent test bowler?
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
You must have realized now guy hardly watches any cricket and is the opposite of a fan.
Sliferxxxx
U19 Debutant
Respectfully, none of Flintoff or Harmisson are particularly great pace bowlers either yet you included them.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Again, you must have worked out his definition of great is just anyone who dismissed Lara.
Sliferxxxx
U19 Debutant
No but it's really frustrating. If he just said Lara struggled against atg pace like Donald and the Ws then that would've been fine. But then why go and mention Flintoff, Harmisson and he's even mentioned Devon Malcolm in the past and we all know they weren't great pace bowlers. If it's to illustrate how much more Lara sucked vs pace we get it. But you can't include the likes of Flintoff and Harmisson and then dismiss people like Gillespie, Lee, etcAgain, you must have worked out his definition of great is just anyone who dismissed Lara.