subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
They were worldclass or close to it in that phase as a unit.
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Brian Lara vs Ricky Ponting (against pace bowling)
- Thread starter Johan
- Start date
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Brett Lee is not even in Gillespie class. The guy was known for spraying it around on test level and I find it disingenuous to pretend he was the same level as the Ashes quartet in that period.
PlayerComparisons
International Captain
Lee has a great record against WI. I’m assuming he usually bowled well against them?
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
The only time I saw Lee consistently bowl at a worldclass level was for a year after McGrath retired from 2007/8. Otherwise he was a leaky faucet, sharp in some spells but then giving the odd four ball to release pressure.
sayon basak
International Captain
Which is true to a certain extent.
And any fast bowler against whom Lara had success, by definition not great.Again, you must have worked out his definition of great is just anyone who dismissed Lara.
Anyways...
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
You think Brett Lee was great? Ok then.
Sliferxxxx
U19 Debutant
And Lee was good in the 2003 series in the WI and great in the 2005 series at home vs WI. Anyway, the point is Harmisson nor Flintoff nor Hoggard were great. And even Gillespie he was around the same pace in 1999 and 2003 as the English 4 some and a level above them overall in terms of ability but carry on....
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
So much wrong here.
The Ashes quartet around 2004 to 2005 as a unit were great. Do I really have to debate this? Why do we rate Ponting's 156 as the best knock in his career?
Yes it was a short period but they definitely achieved that level as a unit and I think both Harmison and Flintoff then were a step ahead of Gillespie in pace. And Lara clearly struggled against them.
Anyways, not convinced that Lara taking on Brett Lee of all bowlers in 2003 is definitive evidence he conquered his demons facing Donald and the 2Ws in the 90s.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I don't know what is wrong in admitting that Lara had a problem in particular with balls at high pace directed at his body and also had a tendency of playing loose strokes that cost him against quality high pacers and that this dogged his career.
Lara definitely had issues with the pace and bounce of Harmison and Flintoff in 2004 across two series. He was supposedly in great form yet had two poor series (aside from that 400 on a flat pitch).
Report from the time before the 400:
'Lara's best score in the series to date was 36. He had been jumping around uncertainly at the crease in a vain effort to counter England's fast, bouncing bowling on fast, bouncing pitches.'
'Harmison, whose first spell of six overs had gone for 27, had just changed ends and he got immediate results, dismissing Gayle, then Smith - and made it three in eight deliveries with the vital wicket of Lara. He hit him on the right hand with one that rose sharply from short of a length, then bounced him next ball: Lara could only fend towards gully as he took his eyes off it.
It was the first time in his career that Lara had made successive Test ducks. More significantly, it showed Harmison's earlier success was no fluke.'
'At 4.45pm Andrew Flintoff bowled a horrid 90mph bouncer that Brian Lara could only fend to second slip, from in front of his throat. From the previous ball Lara, an undeniably great batsman, whatever his merits as captain, had reached 10,000 runs, in fewer innings than any man in Test history. But here Flintoff forced him into a reflex response born of self-preservation, not intent.'
Lara definitely had issues with the pace and bounce of Harmison and Flintoff in 2004 across two series. He was supposedly in great form yet had two poor series (aside from that 400 on a flat pitch).
Report from the time before the 400:
'Lara's best score in the series to date was 36. He had been jumping around uncertainly at the crease in a vain effort to counter England's fast, bouncing bowling on fast, bouncing pitches.'
'Harmison, whose first spell of six overs had gone for 27, had just changed ends and he got immediate results, dismissing Gayle, then Smith - and made it three in eight deliveries with the vital wicket of Lara. He hit him on the right hand with one that rose sharply from short of a length, then bounced him next ball: Lara could only fend towards gully as he took his eyes off it.
It was the first time in his career that Lara had made successive Test ducks. More significantly, it showed Harmison's earlier success was no fluke.'
'At 4.45pm Andrew Flintoff bowled a horrid 90mph bouncer that Brian Lara could only fend to second slip, from in front of his throat. From the previous ball Lara, an undeniably great batsman, whatever his merits as captain, had reached 10,000 runs, in fewer innings than any man in Test history. But here Flintoff forced him into a reflex response born of self-preservation, not intent.'
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Sliferxxxx
U19 Debutant
"Lara's away record is very good but not great and is underwhelming and he was suspect vs express pace. He was inconsistent and sometimes I wanted to run on the field and choke the life out of him for his indispline (especially series in RSA 98)." What more do you want??
Talking about Jason Gillespie, in several interviews (like below one for example) I have seen him go out of his way to single out Lara as the best batsman he has bowled to.
Interestingly, the reasoning that Gillespie gives - why he considers Lara as the best batsman he has bowled to, is the exact same reason Waqar Younis gives (in the second video - in Urdu - Waqar is analyzing the famous yorker he bowled at Lara in Rawalpindi Test in 1997)..
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Brett Lee considers both Tendulkar and Lara the best in different ways.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Ponting was the best in the lineup
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I already complimented you for that take. I am only responding to the idea that he somehow was better against quality high pace in the 2000s. No he struggled throughout.
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Sliferxxxx
U19 Debutant
So what you're saying is that someone can't pay Lara a compliment without you chiming in? Got it.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Not if the compliment is factually wrong, no.
Sliferxxxx
U19 Debutant
Brother seriously and respectfully either go see a therapist or maybe find religion....smh!!!
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Y do you hate therapists and religions? Let them be happy at least.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
And yeah Lara is easily better against every type of bowling compared to every other batsman of his and subsequent generations.