The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[govinda indian fan]

That series doesn't matter, the fact Lillee took 52 wkts to Imran's 40 wkts in same 10 tests says a lot

Fine

 

[capt_Luffy]

What was imran average in those two games

25, he took 6 wickets IIRC

 

[govinda indian fan]

25, he took 6 wickets IIRC

Wow 25 on roads is just amzing

 

[Qlder]

Wow 25 on roads is just amzing

Well Imran did later admit to using a bottle cap on the ball back then and he did also get 50% of his wkts lbw that series which was during the infamous Pakistan home umpire era

 

[govinda indian fan]

Well Imran did later admit to using a bottle cap on the ball back then and he did get 50% of his wkts lbw that series which was during the infamous Pakistan home umpire era

Shocking

 

[capt_Luffy]

Shocking

Questionable as well. Imran admitted to using a bottlecap in a County Game once. If he ever did such a thing in Tests, it most likely was in his 40 wickets India series. Re LBW, it's not like Australian umpires were some beacons of fair play as well. Gavaskar walked off with his partner Chauhan once given a piss poor lbw off of Lillee himself. So downplaying Imran totally makes no literal sense. Also should be mentioned, I believe Imran played in Australia a series as a frontline batsman (though that was post Lillee probs) and hardly bowled in one due to injury (Lillee played that IIRC, though can be wrong there). Once you account for home pitch and batting line-up advantage of Lillee......

 

[Qlder]

This is typical CW. I make a post to show how great Lillee bowled in tests compared to 5 ATG bowlers he played in same test with (Imran, Hadlee, Holding, Roberts and Garner) and the story immediately goes to how Lillee bowled in "that" series in Pakistan

 

[capt_Luffy]

This is typical CW. I make a post to show how great Lillee bowled in tests compared to 5 ATG bowlers he played in same test with (Imran, Hadlee, Holding, Roberts and Garner) and the story immediately goes to how Lillee bowled in "that" series in Pakistan

I mean, I do think it should be mentioned most of those Tests were played in Lillee's home...... I am sure you won't disagree that being a massive advantage.

 

[Qlder]

I mean, I do think it should be mentioned most of those Tests were played in Lillee's home...... I am sure you won't disagree that being a massive advantage.

That doesn't apply for Hadlee and are you seriously suggesting Holding, Roberts and Garner wouldn't prefer to bowl in Australia rather than West Indies?

I also included games against Snow, Willis and Botham where home games were split. Even I was surprised at how much better Lillee did against the very good English pace bowlers at that time

 

[ankitj]

This is typical CW. I make a post to show how great Lillee bowled in tests compared to 5 ATG bowlers he played in same test with (Imran, Hadlee, Holding, Roberts and Garner) and the story immediately goes to how Lillee bowled in "that" series in Pakistan

I don't know what was your earlier post but I agree with your sentiment here. Lillee's entire career on this forum is reduced to his lack of subcontinent success. That is what we talk about 99% of the time Lillee is mentioned. In last ~15 years on this forum I have learned about great performances of many players who were before my time, but nothing about Lillee's.

Edit: found your earlier post.

 

[capt_Luffy]

That doesn't apply for Hadlee and are you seriously suggesting Holding, Roberts and Garner wouldn't prefer to bowl in Australia rather than West Indies?

I also included games against Snow, Willis and Botham where home games were split. Even I was surprised at how much better Lillee did against the very good English pace bowlers at that time

Hadlee bowled to significantly better batsmen, and home advantage against the WI quicks isn't just about where they will prefer to bowl, it's where they are most used to and where he won't.

Lillee had wool over the English pacers though, nothing on them. Just think this direct comparison doesn't works that well with Imran, Hadlee and WI quicks (to an extent, he did bowled to better batsmen in 79, though had the advantage in 76).

 

[Qlder]

Just think this direct comparison doesn't works that well with Imran, Hadlee and WI quicks (to an extent, he did bowled to better batsmen in 79, though had the advantage in 76).

Sorry but the stats I provided were literally the closest direct comparison you can make as it was for when these guys played in the exact same conditions in the same tests. What would give a better "factual" conparison than that?

Surely it now can't be that Lillee only had greater success than opposition ATG bowlers because the Australian batting line-up was better? Other than 1975/76 when Lillee & Thommo destroyed the West Indies (which included the excellent Greenidge, Richards, Kallicharran, Lloyd and Rowe) Australia had limited success after that

 

[capt_Luffy]

Sorry but the stats I provided were literally the closest comparison you can make as it was for when these guys played in the exact same conditions in the same tests. What would give a better "factual" conparison than that?

Overall career comparison. What you are doing is like comparing what Cummins, Anderson and Rabada did in matches with Ashwin, except almost all of them were played in India.

 

[sayon basak]

Joe Misso was born on 1 March 1920. He attended St Peter's College Colombo. Among the hundreds he scored there were two against St Joseph's College.

He was a left-hand bat with a sound defence who put away the bad ball. In 1956 he left Ceylon for England, by which time he had scored 168 centuries, all non first-class. In 1938 he scored 4236 runs with 18 centuries. Misso recorded another 142 hundreds in England for various clubs, mainly Teddington Town, Great Western Railway, Turnham Green and Brentham. His last hundred was in 1978. Misso died in 2011.

His 310 centuries are a record for all cricket.

Regarding the England uncapped XI, James Langridge played Tests. It was his brother John who was not picked.

Can you provide the similar type of description about Frank Roro? Don't think I know much about him.

 

[peterhrt]

Can you provide the similar type of description about Frank Roro? Don't think I know much about him.

Born in 1908. Died in 1971.

Said to have scored a hundred centuries in the segregated non-white cricket of the time, with a career average over a hundred. Played mainly on poor pitches, often matting laid on uneven turf.

Twenty of his hundreds were in the non-white inter-provincial competition, where he scored around 3000 runs with a highest score of 228. Frequently dominated the scoring, as when making 95 out of 127 all out for Transvaal against Border in 1934, and 102* out of 137 against Western Province in 1950.

A more attacking batsman than Misso, favouring the pull and hook and enjoying hitting sixes. Like Misso, also a high-class tennis player.

 

[kyear2]

The attribute of fooling everyone with 4 Tests.....

Gavaskar Barry Boycott Greenidge Smith

He's fooled you as well?

Barry Richards is unique among opening batsmen as he had the game to handle all types of conditions, the very greatest of bowlers and the ability to accelerate his scoring to the point where he destroyed attacks.

Greenidge came closest among modern batsmen, but he wasn't as good as Barry and couldn't consistently score as quickly as he could. Hobbs would probably be the pre war equivalent but I've seen what Barry can do and who he did it against and 1908 was just a different time.

Barry has scored a triple in a day vs Lillee, McKenzie and Lock, scored 9 hundreds before lunch. That's on top of being the best batsman in the world for over half a decade and and even at the end of the decade was still seen as the best opener in the world.

Only Hobbs and Hutton can even match those accomplishments.

But that's just my perspective.

 

[capt_Luffy]

He's fooled you as well?

Barry Richards is unique among opening batsmen as he had the game to handle all types of conditions, the very greatest of bowlers and the ability to accelerate his scoring to the point where he destroyed attacks.

Greenidge came closest among modern batsmen, but he wasn't as good as Barry and couldn't consistently score as quickly as he could. Hobbs would probably be the pre war equivalent but I've seen what Barry can do and who he did it against and 1908 was just a different time.

Barry has scored a triple in a day vs Lillee, McKenzie and Lock, scored 9 hundreds before lunch. That's on top of being the best batsman in the world for over half a decade and and even at the end of the decade was still seen as the best opener in the world.

Only Hobbs and Hutton can even match those accomplishments.

But that's just my perspective.

Which is WRONG!!!

 

[kyear2]

What’s your 1980s Team ?

Somewhat divisive but here goes.

Greenidge
Gavaskar
Richards
Lloyd ©
Border
Botham
Dujon
Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Qadir

Spin and all rounder options were thin, wicketkeeper isn't as strong as other decades either.

 

[kyear2]

What's your first XI pace attack if both Hadlee and Steyn are in the second?

Marshall
McGrath
Wasim

No I don't think Wasim is better than Hadlee, Hadlee is a strong 3rd all time for me. He's just the best old ball bowler, period. In the dog overs I want him, Warne and Sobers keeping the other guys fresh while the other two still being a active threat.

 

[kyear2]

I'm a big fan of Lillee so I was wondering what his record was when bowling in the same Tests as other ATG pace bowlers. I'm thinking the following shows that Lillee was generally never outbowled by any ATG opposition pacer when bowling in the exact same conditions.

Lillee: 52 wkts @ 27.32 (10 tests together)
Imran: 40 wkts @ 24.37

Lillee: 48 wkts @ 26.41 (10 tests)
Holding: 44 wkts @ 26.47

Lillee: 41 wkts @ 25.60 (9 tests)
Roberts: 36 wkts @ 26.33

Lillee: 38 wkts @ 19.47 (8 tests)
Hadlee: 39 wkts @ 24 20

Lillee: 28 wkts @ 24.35 (6 tests)
Garner: 26 wkts @ 22.15

Also added these 3 as they played the most Tests against Lillee

Lillee: 109 wkts @ 21.88 (18 tests)
Willis: 63 wkts @ 29.22

Lillee: 71 wkts @ 21.67 (11 tests)
Botham: 56 wkts @ 23.94

Lillee: 60 wkts @ 20.11 (11 tests)
Snow: 40 wkts @ 27.95

This is interesting.

Only very slight issue is that while he was never out bowled, he never really out bowled anyone but Hadlee either.
But Lillee definitely top 10