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All Rounders Poll - Discussion

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Greg Matthews did end up a batsman that could bowl a bit. That's why he batted #7 and was one of the best batsman in the side at one point.
Agreed. But for first half of his career he was a bowler who can be a capable bat used to bat at 8. He by definition was a bowling all-rounder who just turned out to be a better batsman; just not to the extremes of Smith. At most, you can call him a batting all-rounder, part-timer is stretching it imo.
 

Qlder

International Regular
Just throwing this out there, but I grew up with the fact that a batsman (Chappell, Viv Border) averaging 50 and a bowler (Lillee, Hadlee) taking 5 wickets per match were God's.

To me that made an allrounder averaging half that in each discipline also a God as two players in one. That means my allrounder criteria was averaging over 25 with the bat and 2.5 WPM. Anything less than that was just very handy 😉
 

sayon basak

International Captain
That means my allrounder criteria was averaging over 25 with the bat and 2.5 WPM

Of course I had to lower that to 2.35 WPM to fit Sobers in...
That means you treat 1 wicket as being worth only 10 runs, which is really low.

By this criteria Batting All rounders not named Sobers are non existent.
 

Qlder

International Regular
That means you treat 1 wicket as being worth only 10 runs, which is really low.

By this criteria Batting All rounders not named Sobers are non existent.
25 run average is 50 runs per match so with 2.5 WPM that makes a wkt worth 20 runs which has been the rule of thumb since I was a teenager watching my first game in 1979

That's why great allrounders had records 2000 runs /100 wkts before bowlers started playing 100+ tests passing 2000 runs
 
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sayon basak

International Captain
25 run average is 50 runs per match so with 2.5 WPM that makes a wkt worth 20 runs which has been the rule of thumb since I was a teenager watching my first game in 1979
Ok I thought you were talking about RPM (yeah foolish of me to assume that)

1 wicket per innings and 30 average does ig. Once I calculated the average batting average and average WPM for top 50 batters and bowlers respectively, and then dividend the numbers and got something close to 29.345 iirc. Or maybe one could use aggregate average of all time to come up with almost same result (31.96).

So, in tests, a wicket is roughly worth 30 runs.
 

Qlder

International Regular
Ok I thought you were talking about RPM (yeah foolish of me to assume that)

1 wicket per innings and 30 average does ig. Once I calculated the average batting average and average WPM for top 50 batters and bowlers respectively, and then dividend the numbers and got something close to 29.345 iirc. Or maybe one could use aggregate average of all time to come up with almost same result (31.96).

So, in tests, a wicket is roughly worth 30 runs.
Mine is 25+ average and 2.5 wpm, yours is 30 average and 1 wkt per innings. I'm okay with both criteria as they definitely sort out who is a true allrounder (although Hadlee misses out under your criteria)
 

sayon basak

International Captain
Mine is 25+ average and 2.5 wpm, yours is 30 average and 1 wkt per innings. I'm okay with both criteria as they definitely sort out who is a true allrounder
I'm not settled with any criteria. Because by that criteria Hadlee (and a lot) falls short.

Just think I may go with a criteria which is consistent with 1 wicket=30 runs.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Kallis slipping to no.4 is great. I am quite satisfied with that result. Earlier when I did a Miller vs Kallis thread, Kallis was winning that but he lost this.
Well I didn't know the vote was even going on, may have been true for some others as well. Plus sure there were some strategic voting going on.
 

kyear2

International Coach
I think the issue here is we have what I call "borderline all rounders" - players whose secondary skill (be it batting or bowling) is considerably less highly regarded than their primary skill. I see Hammond in this category (WPM < 1) but his usefulness as a part-time bowler qualifies him as an all rounder (albeit borderline).
To have Wasim and Marshall classified as all rounders stretches it a bit as neither has a batting average that suggests they were expected to score heavily for their team. Wasim's Test centuries might qualify him but averaging well below 25 shouldn't. Marshall didn't average 20. To have either of them (and other possible borderline examples) ahead of genuine all rounders whose batting average is in the 30s, and whose bowling provided an integral part of an attack, would be farcical.
Marshall could bat, like seriously bat, but yada yada yada etc, reasons not important.

But I recall a thread where we were looking at best tours and Imran '82 came up, and his batting average. And I found it interesting that Marshall's output for his India '83 tour was identical, and from the same amount of innings, with a critical innings from Maco that won a match, but one averaged either high 40's or 50, and the other was lower ( can't recall the amount), but everyone just looks at the average.

Wasim had his massive not out double century, Hadlee was one that, while a better bat, was uniquely aware of his numbers and stats and milked it for what it was worth.

Subs loves to **** on Kallis and now many are saying Hammond wasn't an all rounder, but no argument that both are way more impactful for anyyyy team over someone like Kapil. Balance, impact, any of it.

Why I never liked the term all rounder, or buy into the stated importance.

Kallis, Hammond, Sobers, Chappell, Simpson (who will be getting votes from me shortly) etc.., contributed more to victories over the courses of their career with their catching than...
1) with their own bowling (Sobers apart likely), and...
2) that the bowling- all rounders batting.

But we get so caught up with the notion of all rounders, which India are showing that stacking your middle and lowest order with them hurts on all levels.

You need a top order batsman who can help the rotation and help get a few wickets, Hammond and Simpson are more than good enough for that.

You need a no. 8 and if viable without weakening your bowling in any way, a no. 9 who can hold a bat, and bail you out on the odd occasion if your batsmen collapse or hold on to secure a win or add on some useful runs. Yeah, an Imran is great, but Marshall, Warne, hell look at what Cummins is doing, is more than good enough.

This whole all rounder thing is just the spread sheet junkies, and bat deep devotees.

So yeah, I prefer to look at who's the better all round cricketers who can help your team the most, think @Prince EWS was possibly hinting at same. From that regard, Kallis and Hammond are more than good enough, they are almost invaluable.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Marshall could bat, like seriously bat, but yada yada yada etc, reasons not important.

But I recall a thread where we were looking at best tours and Imran '82 came up, and his batting average. And I found it interesting that Marshall's output for his India '83 tour was identical, and from the same amount of innings,
Imran vs India in 83 was 247 in 5 innings, Marshall vs India 84 was 244 in 7 innings. Carry on.

Subs loves to **** on Kallis and now many are saying Hammond wasn't an all rounder, but no argument that both are way more impactful for anyyyy team over someone like Kapil. Balance, impact, any of it.
I never argued that Kallis wasn't an AR, that's nuts.

I always argued that he is overrated and his bowling especially without minnow bashing doesn't compare to Imran's batting much less Sobers bowling yet some group him with them.
 
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Well I didn't know the vote was even going on, may have been true for some others as well. Plus sure there were some strategic voting going on.
Ugh stop whining..

In the other thread you were calling pundits racist for not rating Marshall higher.

Is this a tendency with you?
 

kyear2

International Coach
My impression was that he thinks he and Wasim are both borderline and won't be voting for them, while Marshall and Tendulkar are silly.

I'm gonna get some Marshall and Tendulkar up in this list soon though.

Hey @kyear2 can I convince you to vote for Marshall in a couple of rounds??
Is that really a question? 😂
 

kyear2

International Coach
I apologize. I thought for sure @kyear2 would derail this thread with pages of posts about Proctor being so worthy with so few tests like Barry, but it's down to others claiming Hammond, Marshall, Akram, Tendulker, Border, Cummins and Grace are ATG Test allrounders 😉
Five it time, I'll get there.
Kyear2 isn't a fan of Procter though. He ranks him a tier below Barry as a cricketer.
Did vote for for him so I'm lost.

And to be fair I rate most players below Barry. But I am a fan.
 

Coronis

International Coach
Marshall could bat, like seriously bat, but yada yada yada etc, reasons not important.

But I recall a thread where we were looking at best tours and Imran '82 came up, and his batting average. And I found it interesting that Marshall's output for his India '83 tour was identical, and from the same amount of innings, with a critical innings from Maco that won a match, but one averaged either high 40's or 50, and the other was lower ( can't recall the amount), but everyone just looks at the average.
Marshall in India 1983 6 matches 7 innings 244 @ 34.85 2 fifties
Imran in England? (only tour he did in 1982) 3 matches 5 innings 212 @ 53 2 fifties

Wouldn’t call that equal especially considering pitches and attacks.

Imran was the third highest runscorer that series, ahead of notables such as Gower, Miandad, Abbas. A single innings over 300 was recorded on that tour. Whereas in the Indian tour both teams scored over 400 on multiple occasions.

I’m not one to laud Imran’s batting as much as some do, but there’s no way those series are comparable at all.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Imran vs India in 83 was 247 in 5 innings, Marshall vs India 84 was 244 in 7 innings. Carry on.


I never argued that Kallis wasn't an AR, that's nuts.

I always argued that he is overrated and his bowling especially without minnow bashing doesn't compare to Imran's batting much less Sobers bowling yet some group him with them.
Apologies kind Sir.

If you read I said people are saying Hammond wasn't an all rounder.

And quite frankly, I do think is production isn't far from Imran's. You can disagree.

But Imran's production didn't meet his average and boosted by some skiing.
Kallis similarly lacks the wpm. But again, he wasn't asked to.

And as PEWS said, it's a role not a designation. Always believed that.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Ugh stop whining..

In the other thread you were calling pundits racist for not rating Marshall higher.

Is this a tendency with you?
Who's whining.

And dude, a lot of it was. Don't comment on things that you either didn't observe or ignored at the time.

I've posted multiple video clips that speaks to it, and by it, specially the WI quicks, and especially the same ones that extolled Lillee and Thompson previously... Think even @Johan spoke to it a few weeks or months back.

And do you really want to start? Really?

Anyways, I will try my best to ignore you.
 

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