Jacques Kallis vs Glenn Mcgrath

[subshakerz]

Figured people would have figured out from India by now this all rounder stuff doesn't work.

For those of you who lived through the era recall that it was often discussed having Gilly bat at 6, and this was when Australia had what is very arguably the best batting line up ever.

Yeah.

Even though I consider Imran at 6/7 bat, thats for a normal side. In an ATG setup, he isn't batting higher than 8.

Same with Gilly, he will be more easily exposed against another ATG attack at 6.

These all-rounders are useful but particular to when the ball is older and bowlers more tired. Not in taking the load of an ATG bat.

 

[kyear2]

Hobbs
Gavaskar
Bradman
Sachin
Sobers
Gilchrist
Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
McGrath
Muralitharan

Gilly is normally chosen for the no. 7 spot because most believe Knott isn't a good enough bat. But Imran? He gets nose bleed at 7 in these scenarios.
That's not even including how Gilchrist, as I said in a previous post, hardly ever batted at 6.

Someone mentioned how Sobers is a liability as a 5th bowler at this level. But even if he's not going to be penetrative, he was frugal to a fault.

The potential liability for a 6 and 7 out of batting position is far greater.

With 5 bowlers like these the real challenge is to find overs for all of them, and again, all of them were capable of sustained spells.

5 bowlers and only one is a spinner (especially Muralia) also don't make the most sense, because he'll likely hold down an end and 4 pacers on rotation is just a bit much. It's just redundant.

So it hurts the batting, is unnecessary for the bowling and the catching is even worse.

Three of the fast bowlers claimed a predominant amount of their victims caught behind the wicket, and yet there's one specialist, far less ATG slip fielder in the 11. The catches don't take themselves. And even in this series we've seen the impact drops can have.

With bowlers like these and in competitive scenarios like these you need a good, no, rather a great cordon.

 

[Prince EWS]

Gilly is normally chosen for the no. 7 spot because most believe Knott isn't a good enough bat. But Imran? He gets nose bleed at 7 in these scenarios.
That's not even including how Gilchrist, as I said in a previous post, hardly ever batted at 6.

Someone mentioned how Sobers is a liability as a 5th bowler at this level. But even if he's not going to be penetrative, he was frugal to a fault.

The potential liability for a 6 and 7 out of batting position is far greater.

With 5 bowlers like these the real challenge is to find overs for all of them, and again, all of them were capable of sustained spells.

5 bowlers and only one is a spinner (especially Muralia) also don't make the most sense, because he'll likely hold down an end and 4 pacers on rotation is just a bit much. It's just redundant.

So it hurts the batting, is unnecessary for the bowling and the catching is even worse.

Three of the fast bowlers claimed a predominant amount of their victims caught behind the wicket, and yet there's one specialist, far less ATG slip fielder in the 11. The catches don't take themselves. And even in this series we've seen the impact drops can have.

With bowlers like these and in competitive scenarios like these you need a good, no, rather a great cordon.

Yeah Sobers was usually a fourth bowler or better in real Tests, you're giving him less bowling responsibility in this step up.

Making Gilchrist bat 6 is a step up in responsibility from what is basically two levels below. Just madness IMO.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah Sobers was usually a fourth bowler or better in real Tests, you're giving him less bowling responsibility in this step up.

Making Gilchrist bat 6 is a step up in responsibility from what is basically two levels below. Just madness IMO.

Agreed. The best batsman to bat at 5/6 while wicketkeeping is undoubtedly Andy Flower.

 

[DrWolverine]

Agreed. The best batsman to bat at 5/6 while wicketkeeping is undoubtedly Andy Flower.

Wicketkeepers with 25+ Tests & playing at 5/6

 

[DrWolverine]

Hobbs
Gavaskar
Bradman
Sachin
Flower
Sobers
Imran
Hadlee
McGrath
Marshall
Muralitharan

 

[capt_Luffy]

Wicketkeepers with 25+ Tests & playing at 5/6

View attachment 44197

Accounting for Ames' minnow bashing, Flower is quite well clear of his competition, except for Pant (Don't think as a batsman they are anyways still close though).

 

[Prince EWS]

Accounting for Ames' minnow bashing, Flower is quite well clear of his competition, except for Pant (Don't think as a batsman they are anyways still close though).

Noone is denying his batting though lol

 

[DrWolverine]

Don played most at number 3.
Sachin played mostly at number 4.
Flower played mostly at number 5.
Sobers played mostly at number 6.
Imran played mostly at number 7.
Hadlee played mostly at number 8.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Noone is denying his batting though lol

You know as well as I do that comment was coming..... Also, imo, even if you think he was a very poor keeper, he definitely deserves respect in batting for having that output despite keeping for long hauls.

 

[DrWolverine]

Andy also had the dual burden of captaincy and wicket keeping in 16 Tests and yet averaged 49.2 doing both.

Keeping wickets for 150+ overs
Andy Flower : 19 times in 55 Tests
Mark Boucher : 19 times in 147 Tests
Ian Healy : 18 times in 119 Tests
Adam Gilchrist : 9 times in 96 Tests
On 5 instances Andy kept wickets for 180+ overs.

Andy Flower scored 4794 runs @ 51.53.
Only 3 Zim batsmen scored 1500+ runs during his time.
Their averages were 30, 27 & 29.

 

[DrWolverine]

If Andy Flower played with all time great bowlers, it would mean less workload on his body as a wicket keeper.

If Andy Flower played with all time great batsmen his team, it would mean he would not be a lone warrior anymore and play more freely as a batsman.

 

[Prince EWS]

You know as well as I do that comment was coming..... Also, imo, even if you think he was a very poor keeper, he definitely deserves respect in batting for having that output despite keeping for long hauls.

Yeah I rate Flower's batting extremely highly.

 

[sayon basak]

Hobbs
Gavaskar
Bradman
Sachin
Flower
Sobers
Imran
Hadlee
McGrath
Marshall
Muralitharan

Lol. You really think Flower would be able to keep to Murali or Marshall?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Lol. You really think Flower would be able to keep to Murali or Marshall?

Just ask Murali to turn it less bro! And seriously, keeping to Marshall won't be that tough.

 

[Johan]

Walcott>Flower

 

[sayon basak]

Just ask Murali to turn it less bro! And seriously, keeping to Marshall won't be that tough.

Even if Murali turned it less, Flower would have a hard time reading the doosra (and from what I've read, Murali often used to lie to the keeper about his next delivery, I'm not entirely sure tho)

And Flower would see flowers everywhere while keeping to Marshall.

 

[Coronis]

Even if Murali turned it less, Flower would have a hard time reading the doosra (and from what I've read, Murali often used to lie to the keeper about his next delivery, I'm not entirely sure tho)

And Flower would see flowers everywhere while keeping to Marshall.

Did he lie in English or a different language?

 

[sayon basak]

Did he lie in English or a different language?

Ok I didn't actually read it, I heard it from here.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Even if Murali turned it less, Flower would have a hard time reading the doosra (and from what I've read, Murali often used to lie to the keeper about his next delivery, I'm not entirely sure tho)

And Flower would see flowers everywhere while keeping to Marshall.

That was definitely a joke, but I definitely think keeping to erratic bowlers is tougher than great ones. Loose cannons he kept to plenty. But yeah, don't think Flower will be a good one to keep Murali overall.
Also, lying to your keeper what you will bowl is a huge dick move, can't blame anyone for missing that.