sayon basak
International Captain
If you are picking Flower over Gilchrist in your ATG team, it is very outrageous.
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Jacques Kallis vs Glenn Mcgrath
- Thread starter PlayerComparisons
- Start date
DrWolverine
International Debutant
No
sayon basak
International Captain
And you feeling it's not outrageous is even more outrageous.
DrWolverine
International Debutant
McGrath : 29 5-Fers. 3 10WPM. 11 MoM.
Kallis : 45 centuries. 10 200s. 23 MoM.
Kallis style is boring but doesn’t mean he is less great
Kallis : 45 centuries. 10 200s. 23 MoM.
Kallis style is boring but doesn’t mean he is less great
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Dude you are great, I thought I was the only one here who put Kallis outside the top 15 bats.
Kallis' was an accumulator in a lineup of accumulators that was looking for an actual alpha bat.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
It's not just boring. He was statistically shown to not be able to accelerate even when set. That is a tremendous advantage of predictability and less pressure for the opposition.
And unlike Dravid, Kallis didn't threaten to score mega knocks that could bat you out of the game.
He was a consistent accumulator, a batting mainstay, but in reality far less of a threat than other ATG bats of his era. He has pretty numbers though.
Coronis
International Coach
With keeping (and fielding in general) not having much in the way of reliable stats, its the area where you most have to rely on peer opinion/actually watching the player yourself.
Its notable that I almost never see Flower’s keeping brought up, and if it is its generally a footnote.
Sanga’s keeping for comparison is brought up often. Even de Villiers’ seems to be too.
Is this just his batting overshadowing his keeping? Or is it that his keeping wasn’t worth mentioning? Probably some of both.
Its notable that I almost never see Flower’s keeping brought up, and if it is its generally a footnote.
Sanga’s keeping for comparison is brought up often. Even de Villiers’ seems to be too.
Is this just his batting overshadowing his keeping? Or is it that his keeping wasn’t worth mentioning? Probably some of both.
DrWolverine
International Debutant
Andy Flower : He is from Zim. Who cares about them?
ABD : One of the most popular players of all time
Sanga : His test record speaks for itself
If you want people to talk about a cricketer, either he should be very popular or be so good that even haters can’t deny how good you are.
capt_Luffy
International Coach
ABD's keeping is also very seldom brought up, especially in ATG scenarios by non regulars here and by and large, Sangakkara was an ATG batsman who kept wickets with quality for a third of his career. Flower, on the other hand, was from Zimbabwe. I would argue his batting is also relatively brought up less in comparison to his record. And well, the people who watch him keep have really varied opinions on it. Some like Jarrod Kimber, and 3/4 people at an old 2002 Thread in CW (searched that up as he had just retired) pretty much put his keeping on par with Gilchrist while some pretty regular (and fairly respected) posters here in PEWS, OS and TJB refused to rate his keeping at all (especially PEWS). Some others, like Migara, HB, DrW, my father and the rest in that thread pretty much said his keeping was serviceable, not great but not poor either. Taking every opinion into view, I find this one the soundest honestly, his keeping being in between somewhere the likes of Latif and KAkmal, probably on par with Pant.
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Coronis
International Coach
I am literally talking about WHEN he is brought up, not how often he is.
DrWolverine
International Debutant
That’s because he was a decent wicket keeper. Nothing special.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Flower was never recognized among the top keepers of the era like Healy, Latif and Russell.
capt_Luffy
International Coach
Because they were Great keepers and mediocre bats, the exact opposite of Flower....... What are you gonna say next, Gilchrist was never recognised as good a keeper as Evans, Oldfield and Tallon???
DrWolverine
International Debutant
Because he was a decent keeper and an explosive lower order batsman. I remember CA being criticised for picking a batsman who could keep initially.
kyear2
International Coach
Didn't count for Cricinfo, but that's never been the only time that discussion has been had.
The match I found when I was surprised to see the byes at 0, then to see that he didn't keep that match. Were the bowers less crap then?
Yes, not all time great, not great, not.wirld class, not ven above standard.
Gilchrist existing hasn't stopped Knott from being part of the discussion or conversation.
So again, if an even really good keeper who batted like that existed, he would be part of that conversation.
So yes, do you know how absolutely bad a keeper who averaged 50 would have to be be, not to get pushed into said conversation.
It's just logic at this point.
And that's in the current environment within the sport where we've devalued keeping to the point where whispers of acceptable test stumpers like Pant will soon start to garner support from some circles.
kyear2
International Coach
Yup.
kyear2
International Coach
If he's even on a short list it's outrageous.
Should at least hit a world-class standard to be even discussed.
kyear2
International Coach
Yeah, both of them make my top 22 / 25 elite ATGs, only one makes the top 8 pantheon though, and that's McGrath.