Jasprit Bumrah vs Malcolm Marshall

[Coronis]

I think he should had played more regularly between 1980 and 83.

Why? I wouldn’t be breaking up the more established and successful pace bowling unit unless there was a huge difference in ability at that point. Like with Cummins, Haze and Starc.

Idk much about Bumrah’s pre international career but hasn’t he been a regular selection ever since then? He’s just been injured a lot unless I’m misremembering.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Why? I wouldn’t be breaking up the more established and successful pace bowling unit unless there was a huge difference in ability at that point. Like with Cummins, Haze and Starc.

Idk much about Bumrah’s pre international career but hasn’t he been a regular selection ever since then? He’s just been injured a lot unless I’m misremembering.

Bumrah should had played from around 2016. Was already the leading bowler in 2017 Champions Trophy undoubtedly. He was perceived as India's best by then. The management being wary of picking him in Tests as he was unorthodox was pathetic. What's even more pathetic, he was picked only away for the first 3 years, as Shami and Umesh were very successful at home....... He didn't play at home before 2021.

I can see the reasoning for Marshall, but still, WI hardly had all of the original fab 4 together. And like, Marshall was still better really.

 

[kyear2]

Eh, I don't buy that. I think even with just addition of Shami and Siraj turning good; Bumrah would had faired even better, not to mention the team as a whole...... Like, there's a good chance of Bumrah missing the 4th or 5th Test due to workload. Would had been much better with a bit better support.

The team obviously benefits, there's no doubt there.

With regards to missing tests, I can't say workloads is something new.

The older guys may not have played as many tests, but they did play so much more first class cricket. Guys like Sobers era through the 80's played so much first class cricket (domestic and tours) that it more than eclipsed the work load of modern bowlers.

 

[kyear2]

Bumrah would probably average around 11 if he had guys like Ambrose/Garner/Holding/Walsh/Bishop/Roberts bowling with him

Marshall was very lucky to have such a great pace attack around him

Based on what though?

Are we watching the same series? He comes on and he takes wickets, let's say last night for example... No new ball spell if the other bowlers had done their job and the ends up with 2 for 50 odd?

Lits of things are repeated but watching the actual games, it definitely hurts India (though the attack looked pretty good in the earlier tests and on paper), where was he impacted that would have hurt his numbers? Even if the latest scenario he is killing it.

My only point, quality comes through regardless of circumstance. They are way more impacted by conditions.

 

[kyear2]

Bumrah has spent most of his career bowling in a great attack. Shami, Ashwin and Jadeja haven't exactly been liabilities he's had to carry on his sore shoulders.

Obviously a bit different in this series but still.

And exactly this as well.

He's been pretty consistent throughout.

 

[kyear2]

Bumrah>Marshall is going to be majority consensus in few years.

If he increases his volume, while maintaining these numbers, not saying he can't reach that top tier, but that's a fair bit of ifs.

 

[kyear2]

@kyear2 do you consider this possible? That Bumrah can be the best ever based on current trajectory?

All of this reminds me of those heady days during Smith's peak.

I recall saying a few years back, Smith's were so similar to Punter's numbers, but the hype was in full effect.

Bumrah will have the India hype machine, but he was also not the main guy at home, but he was the driving force away from home.
I also feel in retrospect, this will be seen as an incredibly inept era for batting and building innings.

I think if he hits what ever target each person has for him (and those vary), he can be top 8 if not top 5/6 or so and he does have the talent... Best ever???? All those guys in the top 5 have serous legacies and just as much talent and an equal of not greater ability to wreck innings. And again, he wasn't the main guy on his own team at home.

I already have him 3rd for the SC and ahead of Waqar, but even the road to Imran and Wasim is a long haul, fae less the referenced guys ahead of them.

Short answer, don't think so, but he's ahead of Rabada and Cummins from this era.

 

[kyear2]

Bumrah is 30 years old.

Only time will tell if his can maintain his record like Ambrose or if his numbers will dip like Pollock

Despite what some believe, that Ambrose was able to maintain that average after his pace and penetration dipped was a testament to his skill and accuracy. Not many could do that.

 

[kyear2]

Tbh quality of test batting is definitely starting to decline. As great as Bumrah is, he’s starting to benefit from this.

It's blatantly obvious tbh. No one fights, last night Australia went into hibernation mode initially and allowed the bowlers to dictate to them. It's either comatose batting or wild slogging.

SA and WI are minnow level that few teams were even in the 80's (besides SL), even Australia out up a fight at home back then.

 

[kyear2]

Is that really the case for Marshall?

He was playing from '80, so wouldn't say so.

That would definely apply for Lara, but those were "political" reasons.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

It's blatantly obvious tbh. No one fights, last night Australia went into hibernation mode initially and allowed the bowlers to dictate to them. It's either comatose batting or wild slogging.

SA and WI are minnow level that few teams were even in the 80's (besides SL), even Australia out up a fight at home back then.

I think it’s really started to decline this year. These are test batting strike rates over the last 6 years. If strike rates continue to stay as high as they are this year, then we will start to see ATVG bowlers putting up ATG numbers.

2018: 49.41
2019: 52.33
2020: 48.19
2021: 46.86
2022: 52.22
2023: 55.39
2024: 57.39

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think it’s really started to decline this year. These are test batting strike rates over the last 6 years. If strike rates continue to stay as high as they are this year, then we will start to see ATVG bowlers putting up ATG numbers.

2018: 49.41
2019: 52.33
2020: 48.19
2021: 46.86
2022: 52.22
2023: 55.39
2024: 57.39

Eh, not sure. I don't think overall runs a team scored has changed much. Brook, Jaiswal, etc are doing perfectly fine with their overtly aggressive approach. Whatever sticks, sticks. If teams really starts to score significantly fewer, I am sure they will cut down on shorts play.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Eh, not sure. I don't think overall runs a team scored has changed much. Brook, Jaiswal, etc are doing perfectly fine with their overtly aggressive approach. Whatever sticks, sticks. If teams really starts to score significantly fewer, I am sure they will cut down on shorts play.

Overall runs are definitely decreasing on tough pitches but I think pitches will start to get flatter with how fast test matches are ending now.

Jaiswal and Brook are freaks. Quality of test batting apart from them is definitely going down.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Bumrah is 30 years old.

Only time will tell if his can maintain his record like Ambrose or if his numbers will dip like Pollock

He's actually 31 now (just turned, as of 6 December). Time marches on!

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

I recall saying a few years back, Smith's were so similar to Punter's numbers, but the hype was in full effect.

Bumrah will have the India hype machine, but he was also not the main guy at home, but he was the driving force away from home.
I also feel in retrospect, this will be seen as an incredibly inept era for batting and building innings.

I think if he hits what ever target each person has for him (and those vary), he can be top 8 if not top 5/6 or so and he does have the talent... Best ever???? All those guys in the top 5 have serous legacies and just as much talent and an equal of not greater ability to wreck innings. And again, he wasn't the main guy on his own team at home.

I already have him 3rd for the SC and ahead of Waqar, but even the road to Imran and Wasim is a long haul, fae less the referenced guys ahead of them.

Short answer, don't think so, but he's ahead of Rabada and Cummins from this era.

I will never put him ahead of Hadlee. Never. Only alphabetically. Garner also has him beaten based on batting.

 

[peterhrt]

With regards to missing tests, I can't say workloads is something new.

The older guys may not have played as many tests, but they did play so much more first class cricket. Guys like Sobers era through the 80's played so much first class cricket (domestic and tours) that it more than eclipsed the work load of modern bowlers.

Number of balls delivered by fast bowlers during career. FC + List A + T20.

Walsh 107324, Statham 101946, Trueman 100687, Marshall 96977, Hadlee 83706, Wasim Akram 80110, Tom Richardson 78992, Anderson 72884, McGrath 57999, Lillee 50484, Cummins 25151, Bumrah 24482.

Balls per match: Richardson 221, Statham 178, Lillee 168, Trueman 162, Hadlee 127, Walsh 124, Anderson 121, Marshall 114, McGrath 113,
Wasim Akram 94, Cummins 72, Bumrah 59.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Number of balls delivered by fast bowlers during career. FC + List A + T20.

Walsh 107324, Statham 101946, Trueman 100687, Marshall 96977, Hadlee 83706, Wasim Akram 80110, Tom Richardson 78992, Anderson 72884, McGrath 57999, Lillee 50484, Cummins 25151, Bumrah 24482.

Balls per match: Richardson 221, Statham 178, Lillee 168, Trueman 162, Hadlee 127, Walsh 124, Anderson 121, Marshall 114, McGrath 113,
Wasim Akram 94, Cummins 72, Bumrah 59.

Walsh gets my respect. We didn't appreciate enough while he was around. And by we I mean the WI teams. Last of our great fast bowlers.

 

[kyear2]

Number of balls delivered by fast bowlers during career. FC + List A + T20.

Walsh 107324, Statham 101946, Trueman 100687, Marshall 96977, Hadlee 83706, Wasim Akram 80110, Tom Richardson 78992, Anderson 72884, McGrath 57999, Lillee 50484, Cummins 25151, Bumrah 24482.

Balls per match: Richardson 221, Statham 178, Lillee 168, Trueman 162, Hadlee 127, Walsh 124, Anderson 121, Marshall 114, McGrath 113,
Wasim Akram 94, Cummins 72, Bumrah 59.

So yeah, this work load argument really falls flat.

 

[kyear2]

Walsh gets my respect. We didn't appreciate enough while he was around. And by we I mean the WI teams. Last of our great fast bowlers.

No we did not, and yes he was.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

No we did not, and yes he was.

Seales looks promising though. First time I've had hope in a while.