Jasprit Bumrah vs Malcolm Marshall

[sayon basak]

Just for reference, Pollock I believe reached 300 with a 20 average.

Marshall was 19/20, I think.

Pollock reached 300 wickets @20.6054.
Marshall reached 300 wickets @20.8867.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Pollock reached 300 wickets @20.6054.
Marshall reached 300 wickets @20.8867.

I honestly think Bumrah can reach that averaging 20ish. Assuming fitness and maybe scale back the limited overs stuff...

 

[subshakerz]

I honestly think Bumrah can reach that averaging 20ish. Assuming fitness and maybe scale back the limited overs stuff...

If Ashwin and Jadeja fall away, a lot more pressure at home. He has to be very carefully managed.

But honestly this series is kinda make or break in one sense, if at this stage in his prime he can't physically finish a single 5 test series on the trot I am not sure he can be yet favorably compared with ATG bowlers of the past who often did 6 test match series with long spells without breaking down. Stamina is part of the package.

Marshall was known to be supremely fit.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

If Ashwin and Jadeja fall away, a lot more pressure at home. He has to be very carefully managed.

But honestly this series is kinda make or break in one sense, if at this stage in his prime he can't physically finish a single 5 test series on the trot I am not sure he can be yet favorably compared with ATG bowlers of the past who often did 6 test match series with long spells without breaking down. Stamina is part of the package.

Marshall was known to be supremely fit.

India imo, has bowlers waiting in the wings to keep them dominant at home. Finding bowlers away in the mould of Shami will be challenging however. With his action, yes his fitness may be an issue. If I'm Indian and India go into the last test 1-3 down I'm probably resting Jasprit.

 

[Prince EWS]

Bumrah could also easily be asked to continue if his pace is gone, he becomes a third bowler and he averages 27/28 in the attack for a few latter years if there aren't better options.

So he could average 20 reaching 300 wickets and 22/23 by the end of his career.

Imagine thinking that playing on, benefiting the team but having your averages suffer is actually better than retiring and leaving them in the lurch because you're worried about your average in Nepal.

 

[Thala_0710]

Who has the best avg at the time of his first 200 test wickets? Is there a list?

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

There have been ongoing conversations on whether Hadlee was disadvantaged by not being part of a great unit compared to let's say McGrath or Maco.

When you watch Bumrah, it's apparent how with the great ones it really doesn't matter. Just seems to give him more attempts for wickets.

I have no doubt that Bumrah could have done well as a lone wolf for some period of time but I don't think that he could have sustained it like Hadlee did under the same circumstances.

Here's India's Test bowling since the start of Bumrah's Test career (so spanning about 6 years 11 months):



You can see that Bumrah has been surrounded by bowlers averaging in the 20s with SRs in the 40s and 50s. He has had excellent support overall.

Bumrah has also not been overworked as he has bowled just 100.0 balls/innings and 190.6 balls/match (these figures are somewhat imprecise as his 43rd Test match is ongoing!).

Despite his low workload, Bumrah has nevertheless broken down a few times and has played just 43 of a possible 69 Tests for an availability of 62%.

Here's NZ's bowling from when Hadlee started to be really good (Bumrah was good practically from the get-go, his bowling average dropping to 24-25 one month into his Test career). This spans about 12 years 5 months:



You can see that Hadlee was surrounded by bowlers averaging in the 30s with SRs in the late 70s, and 80s. Bumrah has clearly had much better support. It's really like chalk and cheese.

For the time period above, Hadlee bowled 152.8 balls/innings and 263.5 balls/match.

Despite his high workload, Hadlee played 69 of a possible 75 Tests for an availability of 92%.

So Hadlee had a workrate which was 53% higher in balls/innings, 38% higher in balls/match (imprecise as explained above), had a vastly superior availability of 92% cf. 62% and maintained this for 12 years 5 months cf. just 6 years 11 months (so far) for Bumrah. And Hadlee's stats over this period are also mind-blowing.

I have my doubts that Bumrah could have done what Hadlee did.

Edit: of course, we will have to see what the future holds.

 

[subshakerz]

Imagine thinking that playing on, benefiting the team but having your averages suffer is actually better than retiring and leaving them in the lurch because you're worried about your average in Nepal.

Spare me the violin. Nobody would blame Bumrah. But would you rate him the same? No.

 

[h_hurricane]

Who has the best avg at the time of his first 200 test wickets? Is there a list?

Not sure if there is a list as such, but Shaun Pollock was averaging 19.86 after 50 tests and 210 wickets which I believe is the best anyone has reached on or after 200 wickets.

The best anyone has averaged on or after 190 wickets is Waqar Younis who was at 19.15 at 190 wickets after which that average fell steeply.

 

[Prince EWS]

Spare me the violin. Nobody would blame Bumrah. But would you rate him the same? No.

You clearly don't know me very well.

 

[DrWolverine]

If Ashwin and Jadeja fall away, a lot more pressure at home.

Considering how pathetic batsmen are against spin nowadays, we can find another good spinner even if he isn’t on the level of Ashwin

 

[DrWolverine]

Who has the best avg at the time of his first 200 test wickets? Is there a list?

With Bumrah dancing around the 'mythical' figure of 20.00, a few names that went sub-20 after 150+ wkts in Test Cricket:

19.86, 210W in 50T: Pollock

19.72, 194W in 35T: Waqar

16.43, 189W in 27T, Barnes

19.97, 163W in 39T: Lindwall

19.47, 152W in 30T: Botham

 

[Coronis]

Who has the best avg at the time of his first 200 test wickets? Is there a list?

It would be too annoying to check the exact average after their 200th wicket so I’ll just go by their average post that match for some players I can think of who would be contenders.

Pollock 49 matches 203 @ 20.26
Waqar 38 matches 200 @ 20.61 (was at 199 @ 20.04 the match before lol)
Garner 44 matches 200 @ 20.73

for spinners its probs Warne - 42 matches 201 @ 22.92

fun fact I learnt: Glenn McGrath’s average never got into the 20’s. He had a slow start, and the closest he got was 21.01 during the 2005 Ashes.

 

[ankitj]

Sobers could average 0 against NZ and it wouldnt make him a lesser bat for me.

Poor record against NZ is hallmark of a truly great player. It's why I rate Wasim and Waqar lower

 

[DrWolverine]

Poor record against NZ is hallmark of a truly great player.

Viv & Bumrah

 

[subshakerz]

Poor record against NZ is hallmark of a truly great player. It's why I rate Wasim and Waqar lower

Logical fallacy.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I have no doubt that Bumrah could have done well as a lone wolf for some period of time but I don't think that he could have sustained it like Hadlee did under the same circumstances.

Here's India's Test bowling since the start of Bumrah's Test career (so spanning about 6 years 11 months):

View attachment 43351

You can see that Bumrah has been surrounded by bowlers averaging in the 20s with SRs in the 40s and 50s. He has had excellent support overall.

Bumrah has also not been overworked as he has bowled just 100.0 balls/innings and 190.6 balls/match (these figures are somewhat imprecise as his 43rd Test match is ongoing!).

Despite his low workload, Bumrah has nevertheless broken down a few times and has played just 43 of a possible 69 Tests for an availability of 62%.

Here's NZ's bowling from when Hadlee started to be really good (Bumrah was good practically from the get-go, his bowling average dropping to 24-25 one month into his Test career). This spans about 12 years 5 months:

View attachment 43352

You can see that Hadlee was surrounded by bowlers averaging in the 30s with SRs in the late 70s, and 80s. Bumrah has clearly had much better support. It's really like chalk and cheese.

For the time period above, Hadlee bowled 152.8 balls/innings and 263.5 balls/match.

Despite his high workload, Hadlee played 69 of a possible 75 Tests for an availability of 92%.

So Hadlee had a workrate which was 53% higher in balls/innings, 38% higher in balls/match (imprecise as explained above), had a vastly superior availability of 92% cf. 62% and maintained this for 12 years 5 months cf. just 6 years 11 months (so far) for Bumrah. And Hadlee's stats over this period are also mind-blowing.

I have my doubts that Bumrah could have done what Hadlee did.

Edit: of course, we will have to see what the future holds.

I completely agree with this. I think Bumrah is one of the least ideal bowler among the top bunch to be a lone wolf. Not for quality, but for workload management. The fact that he can even play internationally with that action is pretty wild on itself. While both Marshall and Bumrah has pretty similar circumstances (relatively weak batsmen all around with supportive Era, getting picked regularly latter than they should had and ofcourse, most importantly, a really solid bowling support), Marshall I believe would had excelled in a weak line-up with more workload as well. Not for skill really, just fitness.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Tbh quality of test batting is definitely starting to decline. As great as Bumrah is, he’s starting to benefit from this.

 

[Coronis]

I completely agree with this. I think Bumrah is one of the least ideal bowler among the top bunch to be a lone wolf. Not for quality, but for workload management. The fact that he can even play internationally with that action is pretty wild on itself. While both Marshall and Bumrah has pretty similar circumstances (relatively weak batsmen all around with supportive Era, getting picked regularly latter than they should had and ofcourse, most importantly, a really solid bowling support), Marshall I believe would had excelled in a weak line-up with more workload as well. Not for skill really, just fitness.

Is that really the case for Marshall?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Is that really the case for Marshall?

I think he should had played more regularly between 1980 and 83.