Brian Lara vs Sunil Gavaskar

[capt_Luffy]

Willis was the type of bowler that gets a bit more bounce out of the surface than most by proportion and Viv hammered him a few times.

True, but I will still argue the bulk of that claim is Lillee and Thomson. Also, England isn't particularly known for bounce.

 

[BazBall21]

True, but I will still argue the bulk of that claim is Lillee and Thomson. Also, England isn't particularly known for bounce.

Yeah that's why I mentioned that Willis is the type of bowler who just gets a bit more bounce out of the surface than most.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah that's why I mentioned that Willis is the type of bowler who just gets a bit more bounce out of the surface than most.

Viv's record against the Carribbean pacers in FC isn't really Great either (averages 37 when facing atleast one of Marshall, Holding, Roberts, Garner, Croft, Clarke, Daniels, Walsh, Ambrose, Gray, Bishop or Moseley). Why I am bringing this? Because I think if Viv's stature as the best player of pace on spicy tracks is more or less solely on Lillee and Thomson, then a few players can match upto him imo. Probably still place him at 1, but it's more arguable.

 

[subshakerz]

Again, the challenge was moreso movement than Pace. Against raw pace, the thing Viv is really known for, Viv's best and by large all the work is in Australia vs Lillee and Thomson.

I mean, sure raw pace was pretty much Aus and Imran in his peak,.and he passed those challenges. Imran post-86 when he managed to level with Viv thanks to the legcutter was down on pace.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I mean, sure raw pace was pretty much Aus and Imran in his peak,.and he passed those challenges. Imran post-86 when he managed to level with Viv thanks to the legcutter was down on pace.

You can by and large say that against raw pace Gavaskar also only faced the WI battery and Imran regularly and overall, came on top. Yet, some people thinks he has some big weakness against high pace.

 

[subshakerz]

You can by and large say that against raw pace Gavaskar also only faced the WI battery and Imran regularly and overall, came on top. Yet, some people thinks he has some big weakness against high pace.

Didn't come out on top against WI per se. He was mixed.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Didn't come out on top against WI per se. He was mixed.

Overall, two Great series and a poor one. I will definitely say he was pretty great vs them overall.

 

[BazBall21]

Viv's record against the Carribbean pacers in FC isn't really Great either (averages 37 when facing atleast one of Marshall, Holding, Roberts, Garner, Croft, Clarke, Daniels, Walsh, Ambrose, Gray, Bishop or Moseley). Why I am bringing this? Because I think if Viv's stature as the best player of pace on spicy tracks is more or less solely on Lillee and Thomson, then a few players can match upto him imo. Probably still place him at 1, but it's more arguable.

Gooch did better v WI quicks than Viv

 

[BazBall21]

Didn't come out on top against WI per se. He was mixed.

Feast or famine at best. I prefer consistency. Gavaskar also had two series v the awesome foursome, not three. There were some average attacks on slow pitches in the 1976 series. 1983 was a totally different kettle of fish where he did nothing except a low jepoardy ton on an Asian pitch.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Feast or famine at best. I prefer consistency. Gavaskar also had two series v the awesome foursome, not three. There were some average attacks on slow pitches in the 1976 series. 1983 was a totally different kettle of fish where he did nothing except a low jepoardy ton on an Asian pitch.

So 83 home does not counts?? And 76 was, by and large, a good bowling overall. 76 series was very consistent, scoring 3 of 4 matches and I personally won't call a 200, 100 and 90 in a series scoring 500+ @50+ not feast and famine.

Gooch did better v WI quicks than Viv

Yes he did, but only against them.

 

[BazBall21]

I agree that Gavaskar didn't have a major weakness v pace. He was very good. His downfall v accurate pace/bounce heavy attacks was a reluctance to play frequent horizontal shots. Conservative mindset that obviously served him well in more general terms. Dravid had a similar issue though I think Gavaskar was a bit better v pace than him.

 

[BazBall21]

So 83 home does not counts?? And 76 was, by and large, a good bowling overall. 76 series was very consistent, scoring 3 of 4 matches and I personally won't call a 200, 100 and 90 in a series scoring 500+ @50+ not feast and famine.

Yes he did, but only against them.

Yeah Viv is a much better player overall but in terms of ability v high pace on spicy tracks, I rate Gooch highly. He also did very well v Wasim/Waqar and had a big tour of Australia in his prime.

Gavaskar was prolific in 1976, but going big on slow pitches v patchy attacks inflated the image. The attack for one of the two POS tests was very poor. 106 @ 26.5 v Roberts/Holding in Jamaica and Barbados.

 

[subshakerz]

Feast or famine at best. I prefer consistency. Gavaskar also had two series v the awesome foursome, not three. There were some average attacks on slow pitches in the 1976 series. 1983 was a totally different kettle of fish where he did nothing except a low jepoardy ton on an Asian pitch.

He basically played WI quartet back to back in 83. He scored three tons, all in drawn games though.

Would say that overall I would say he had issues with them.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah Viv is a much better player overall but in terms of ability v high pace on spicy tracks, I rate Gooch highly. He also did very well v Wasim/Waqar and had a big tour of Australia in his prime.

Gavaskar was consistent in 1976, but going big on slow pitches v patchy attacks inflated the image. The attack for one of the two POS tests was very poor. 106 @ 26.5 v Roberts/Holding in Jamaica and Barbados.

I do think the other century in the match featuring both Roberts and Holding should count; and the Barbados match has some dirty bowling (not even bouncers but beamers). A 66 in such a match is a win in my book. Holding was Great in that series going under 20.

 

[capt_Luffy]

He basically played WI quartet back to back in 83. He scored three tons, all in drawn games though.

Would say that overall I would say he had issues with them.

Doesn't like every batsman had issues against top tier pacers?? Lara, Tendulkar vs Donald and Pollock for once comes to mind. Even Viv himself averages 37 odd vs the WI pacers domestically.
Also, for the drawn game point, India won 0 of those games. So the runs could either had came in defeats or draws. Especially the Mumbai one was genuinely a hard fought earnt draw.

 

[BazBall21]

I do think the other century in the match featuring both Roberts and Holding should count; and the Barbados match has some dirty bowling (not even bouncers but beamers). A 66 in such a match is a win in my book. Holding was Great in that series going under 20.

It was the Jamaica game where the umpires lost control. 66 is one of his best knocks. The 11 tests v WI in 1983 were Gavaskar's games v proper WI. Perhaps we can include Jamaica 1976 too given the hostility of the bowling and environment. He wasn't a disaster but I wouldn't say he came out on top. He didn't make impactful scores in enough games.

 

[BazBall21]

Doesn't like every batsman had issues against top tier pacers?? Lara, Tendulkar vs Donald and Pollock for once comes to mind. Even Viv himself averages 37 odd vs the WI pacers domestically.
Also, for the drawn game point, India won 0 of those games. So the runs could either had came in defeats or draws. Especially the Mumbai one was genuinely a hard fought earnt draw.

None of that means Gavaskar came out on top though. It means it was very difficult to come out on top.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Okay, I know it may sound crazy, but Kohli might actually be among the best players of pure pace ever. Suffice to say, pure pacey bouncy tracks against good/great pacers means SA and Australia; and he does have a Top class record in both of those places.

 

[capt_Luffy]

None of that means Gavaskar came out on top though. It means it was very difficult to come out on top.

Again, between the 3 series he averaged 45 odd. Given the circumstances, I will say that counts as a win.

 

[Slifer]

Yeah he failed against Donald and the 2Ws away.


Sure but without Donald wasn't the same attack. Even Pollock was starting to decline then.

Murali yes, a single series tho.


He averages 47 away and pretty much the entire top tier is 50 above. But at least you grant my point.


Two big issues: not many good series against great attacks and generally not many good series overall.

Yes his record is consistent with being below par against the best attacks. Not only that, but hardly has more than one quality series per country, except maybe Aus

Against Aus, he had two poor and one good series against McGrath. Overall 41 in Aus is disappointing..

Against Pak, failed against 2Ws and only scored against below par attack without Shoaib in 2006.

Against SA, below par against peak Donald and only scored when he was gone.

Against Eng, great series in 95 but the really threatening attack he faced was Ashes quartet 2004 and was below par.

Against NZ, below par against Bond.

SL is glorious exception but a single below par series in India too.

Ok now answer me this question, name me the great attack that BOTH Lara and Sachin played against where Sachin did distinctly better away.