Brian Lara vs Sunil Gavaskar

[kyear2]

That’s an opinion

That's unquestioned fact sir.

 

[DrWolverine]

ATG (probably best ever). Very good. Cliff

But somehow the 2 / 3 year fall off invalidates the greatest peak in the toughest era ever?

I did not say that.

Just saying he had a great peak early on and then declined(for his standards)

 

[capt_Luffy]

Nah, Lara is better than Viv. Viv fans are wild (except HHH, he is cool).

And honestly, I was thinking hard on it, the only ATG pacers Viv had the Woolley overall was Lillee, that pretty much covers it. He had one Great tour vs Imran, but between them Imran has the better record h2h, had a great series vs Hadlee at home but was piss poor away and that pretty much covers all. Against Lillee and Thomson though, he has a Great record, but like, his whole thing of dominating pacers comes from those 2. Sobers also did that to Lillee. Lara dominated both Murali and Warne, the two GoATs, multiple times.

 

[Johan]

And honestly, I was thinking hard on it, the only ATG pacers Viv had the Woolley overall was Lillee, that pretty much covers it. He had one Great tour vs Imran, but between them Imran has the better record h2h, had a great series vs Hadlee at home but was piss poor away and that pretty much covers all. Against Lillee and Thomson though, he has a Great record, but like, his whole thing of dominating pacers comes from those 2. Sobers also did that to Lillee. Lara dominated both Murali and Warne, the two GoATs, multiple times.

Imran in Pakistan in 81 and Peak Botham in England in 80, if home series are to be counted then Wasim in 88 and Hadlee in 85, also he only has 4 innings in New Zealand, nowhere near enough sample size, Lara himself got completely obliterated by Bond in the 2006 NZ Tour IIRC (as always, I've horrid memory so don't take it for a fact.)

 

[Johan]

also, Sobers is better than Lara at batting lol.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Nah, Lara is better than Viv. Viv fans are wild (except HHH, he is cool).

And honestly, I was thinking hard on it, the only ATG pacers Viv had the Woolley overall was Lillee, that pretty much covers it. He had one Great tour vs Imran, but between them Imran has the better record h2h, had a great series vs Hadlee at home but was piss poor away and that pretty much covers all. Against Lillee and Thomson though, he has a Great record, but like, his whole thing of dominating pacers comes from those 2. Sobers also did that to Lillee. Lara dominated both Murali and Warne, the two GoATs, multiple times.

Viv averaged about 46.7 head to head vs Immy(calculated this a long time back, one ATG tour of Pak, and one great tour at home vs a rampaging Imran), 50ish vs Lillee(WSC included), dominated the ATG phase of Botham(good series away and home), and 43 vs Hadlee. Plus he had a good series vs the quartet in India and a massive series vs them in WI(where Bedi ans Chandra bowled incredibly well). He wins all these battles(and I really think basis a three match series away, you cannot declare a player piss poor in certain conditions, even in that series Viv didn’t have specific problems against Hadlee).

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Nah, Lara is better than Viv. Viv fans are wild (except HHH, he is cool).

And honestly, I was thinking hard on it, the only ATG pacers Viv had the Woolley overall was Lillee, that pretty much covers it. He had one Great tour vs Imran, but between them Imran has the better record h2h, had a great series vs Hadlee at home but was piss poor away and that pretty much covers all. Against Lillee and Thomson though, he has a Great record, but like, his whole thing of dominating pacers comes from those 2. Sobers also did that to Lillee. Lara dominated both Murali and Warne, the two GoATs, multiple times.

Also Lara and Viv are close, and rating either higher than the other is not a problem. It’s just that Viv has a more complete record in my opinion

 

[DrWolverine]

Also Lara and Viv are close, and rating either higher than the other is not a problem. It’s just that Viv has a more complete record in my opinion

True

 

[capt_Luffy]

Viv averaged about 46.7 head to head vs Immy(calculated this a long time back, one ATG tour of Pak, and one great tour at home vs a rampaging Imran), 50ish vs Lillee(WSC included), dominated the ATG phase of Botham(good series away and home), and 43 vs Hadlee. Plus he had a good series vs the quartet in India and a massive series vs them in WI(where Bedi ans Chandra bowled incredibly well). He wins all these battles(and I really think basis a three match series away, you cannot declare a player piss poor in certain conditions, even in that series Viv didn’t have specific problems against Hadlee).

You missed my point actually. Viv is rated really high for his ability against Great pacers in fast pitches. His runs against Imran, Hadlee or the English attack, none came in particularly fast ones. It wasn't a critic of him per say, was just saying that he only really did that vs Lillee, and to an ATG extent in one series. Both Sobers (vs Lillee), Sachin (vs Steyn) and Waugh (Ambrose/Walsh) had such performances in fast pitches. It was my point @Johan

 

[Slifer]

Nah, Lara is better than Viv. Viv fans are wild (except HHH, he is cool).

And honestly, I was thinking hard on it, the only ATG pacers Viv had the Woolley overall was Lillee, that pretty much covers it. He had one Great tour vs Imran, but between them Imran has the better record h2h, had a great series vs Hadlee at home but was piss poor away and that pretty much covers all. Against Lillee and Thomson though, he has a Great record, but like, his whole thing of dominating pacers comes from those 2. Sobers also did that to Lillee. Lara dominated both Murali and Warne, the two GoATs, multiple times.

Viv also made runs vs Imran and Wasim in 1988 at home. The thing is, you can look at any other atg batsman and they too would be up and down vs atg bowlers. But that fact remains, against every great of his time Viv had at least one series where he was great. Lara never did vs the WWs or Donald, ditto Sachin, Sunil I believe never managed against Sir Richard or Lillee etc

 

[capt_Luffy]

Viv also made runs vs Imran and Wasim in 1988 at home. The thing is, you can look at any other atg batsman and they too would be up and down vs atg bowlers. But that fact remains, against every great of his time Viv had at least one series where he was great. Lara never did vs the WWs or Donald, ditto Sachin, Sunil I believe never managed against Sir Richard or Lillee etc

That's not my point really. My point was Richards, according to some, belongs in a separate tier against pace in spicy wickets. That, he played in them against only one strong opponent, and others like Sobers, Sachin and Waugh have also managed just that.

 

[Johan]

You missed my point actually. Viv is rated really high for his ability against Great pacers in fast pitches. His runs against Imran, Hadlee or the English attack, none came in particularly fast ones. It wasn't a critic of him per say, was just saying that he only really did that vs Lillee, and to an ATG extent in one series. Both Sobers (vs Lillee), Sachin (vs Steyn) and Waugh (Ambrose/Walsh) had such performances in fast pitches. It was my point @Johan

can we really consider Ambrose/Walsh express like Lillee/Thommo? plus, he scored heavily against them in West Indies where the wickets are very varied and often more movement than bounce favouring, at home he relatively struggled against them. also tbf, Richards only had Australia who had an excess of extreme pacers and very bouncy and fast wickets, and he (alongside Tendulkar) is the greatest tourist to Australia in my eyes, he never once struggled with extreme pace and bounce imo and that's why I've him as #1 against it, not a #1 by far and there are certainly people close to him but still #1.

anyway, agreed on Sobers and Tendulkar being ATGs against pace and bounce, should be obvious. My rating of Viv spawns more from just having a near flawless record bar last three years rather than dominating one kind of bowling btw, his record against ATGs is just a plus.

 

[Slifer]

That's not my point really. My point was Richards, according to some, belongs in a separate tier against pace in spicy wickets. That, he played in them against only one strong opponent, and others like Sobers, Sachin and Waugh have also managed just that.

Richards is distinctly better than both Sobers and especially Sachin vs pace. That's not even up for debate. With the likes of Imran, at his peak, the pitch didn't matter he swung the ball as you know. His one hundred vs Hadlee came on the spicy Kensington wicket in 1985 fwiw.

 

[ankitj]

ATG (probably best ever). Very good. Cliff

But somehow the 2 / 3 year fall off invalidates the greatest peak in the toughest era ever?

What toughest era? He did not face the toughest bowling attack of the era. Imran and Hadlee were hardly the bowlers they would become. It was only really Lillee who was a truly great bowler at his best that Viv Richards faced.

 

[Johan]

Imran did get his big breakthrough iirc by the time Viv had his ATG Pakistan series against him, he got it in India afaik and Viv faced Hadlee in 85.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

For some reason kyear thinks Viv’s era is far harder than Smith’s era

 

[kyear2]

What toughest era? He did not face the toughest bowling attack of the era. Imran and Hadlee were hardly the bowlers they would become. It was only really Lillee who was a truly great bowler at his best that Viv Richards faced.

Imran did get his big breakthrough iirc by the time Viv had his ATG Pakistan series against him, he got it in India afaik and Viv faced Hadlee in 85.

He faced Imran and Hadlee at their peaks, Lillee close to his.

And at this point Luffy is just throwing **** at the wall to see what sticks.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

The rest of the attacks Imran and Hadlee were in were terrible

 

[kyear2]

For some reason kyear thinks Viv’s era is far harder than Smith’s era

It literally was. Are you serious right now?

Before we get to the bowlers,.let's look at the rules and protection.

Then we get to the point that the first half of his record was in the flat pitches era and the past couple of the return to live pitches he's not exactly matches his previous performances.

Also while the overall quality of attack may be comparable, no one currently playing is close to what Hadlee, Imran, (peak) Botham, Lillee was. There were no minnows (I mean there were, but we didn't play them) to pad the averages vs.

I think Smith is a brilliant player with an amazing record and definitely in my elite top 8 (no. 6 to be exact), so nothing against him.

 

[kyear2]

Richards is distinctly better than both Sobers and especially Sachin vs pace. That's not even up for debate. With the likes of Imran, at his peak, the pitch didn't matter he swung the ball as you know. His one hundred vs Hadlee came on the spicy Kensington wicket in 1985 fwiw.

Yeah, the rewriting of history to try to prove a point is a little silly, but Luffy is trying.

And PC just likes to create chaos.

And again, Mr. Gavaskar is a ATG opener and batsman, one of the rare breed of the former, and a top 10 bat. No one's disputing that.