Brian Lara vs Sunil Gavaskar

[kyear2]

It was a joke boss

It's not just you, and for many it isn't.

The late 20's and 30's, as was stated in a thread by another poster, were just roads. It got to the point where runs were seen as almost being devalued.

When you add only two good teams, one all time great bowler and limited travel and playing in only two countries, and three of the teams being minnows...

 

[Coronis]

It's not just you, and for many it isn't.

The late 20's and 30's, as was stated in a thread by another poster, were just roads. It got to the point where runs were seen as almost being devalued.

When you add only two good teams, one all time great bowler and limited travel and playing in only two countries, and three of the teams being minnows...

And to us most of the pitches pre-WWI would have not been fit to play on, and many of us find wickets from that time devalued.

Remember who that perspective is coming from, the people who were used to that pre-war cricket style.

 

[Slifer]

For some reason kyear thinks Viv’s era is far harder than Smith’s era

It's not far harder but Viv had to face some things that Smith couldn't even dream of. First series down under the Aussies used to bowl limitless bouncers with the crowd egging them on, with minimal protection. And crowds back then weren't exactly pc either. They tried the same bs in 1979-80 and Viv even got injured by the end of that tour, which is why he missed the NZ series that WI lost. Then there are Viv's exploits in WSC. Viv isn't head and shoulders above the likes of Waugh and even Ponting or Smith vs pace but imo he is better. He definitely looked more comfortable.

 

[capt_Luffy]

It's not far harder but Viv had to face some things that Smith couldn't even dream of. First series down under the Aussies used to bowl limitless bouncers with the crowd egging them on, with minimal protection. And crowds back then weren't exactly pc either. They tried the same bs in 1979-80 and Viv even got injured by the end of that tour, which is why he missed the NZ series that WI lost. Then there are Viv's exploits in WSC. Viv isn't head and shoulders above the likes of Waugh and even Ponting or Smith vs pace but imo he is better. He definitely looked more comfortable.

Yeah, but Viv also didn't faced a challenge like Smith in India 2017. Overall, removing WI from then and Australia now, I will call the eras around equal.

 

[Johan]

Think I've seen Smith struggle more with pace/bounce than Viv, I'll put them about even against movement

 

[subshakerz]

Padded? Oh you mean because Lara didn't make runs vs Donald or the Wws away?

Yeah he failed against Donald and the 2Ws away.

Instead he made runs away vs Murali, Pollock/Ntini, McWarne (2005) etc.

Sure but without Donald wasn't the same attack. Even Pollock was starting to decline then.

Murali yes, a single series tho.

The man averages 48 away which is more than enough to be considered very good. Not on the same level as his great contemporary, which is why he's usually ranked lower.

He averages 47 away and pretty much the entire top tier is 50 above. But at least you grant my point.

And don't tell me he played depleted teams either. He never played a depleted Aus team and he never got to feast on the likes of Bangladesh away either.

Two big issues: not many good series against great attacks and generally not many good series overall.

Yes his record is consistent with being below par against the best attacks. Not only that, but hardly has more than one quality series per country, except maybe Aus

Against Aus, he had two poor and one good series against McGrath. Overall 41 in Aus is disappointing..

Against Pak, failed against 2Ws and only scored against below par attack without Shoaib in 2006.

Against SA, below par against peak Donald and only scored when he was gone.

Against Eng, great series in 95 but the really threatening attack he faced was Ashes quartet 2004 and was below par.

Against NZ, below par against Bond.

SL is glorious exception but a single below par series in India too.

 

[subshakerz]

Nah, Lara is better than Viv. Viv fans are wild (except HHH, he is cool).

And honestly, I was thinking hard on it, the only ATG pacers Viv had the Woolley overall was Lillee, that pretty much covers it. He had one Great tour vs Imran, but between them Imran has the better record h2h, had a great series vs Hadlee at home but was piss poor away and that pretty much covers all. Against Lillee and Thomson though, he has a Great record, but like, his whole thing of dominating pacers comes from those 2. Sobers also did that to Lillee. Lara dominated both Murali and Warne, the two GoATs, multiple times.

Viv did well against Eng pacers including peak Botham.

Viv was just a way better away performer than Lara, more consistent.

 

[BazBall21]

Viv is slightly ahead of Smith for now imo. I'd have Smith over Lara.

 

[kyear2]

I never said you rate their batting as equal, but them as players. Read once what someone said before calling them disingenuous.

I have said, and repeatedly. Bradman is one, there's however an argument to be made.

And you know that's what I said, and you keep repeating it.

How is that not disingenuous.

 

[kyear2]

I think vs pure pace Richards is the best ever. Is his record Bradmanesque in that context? No

Don't think anyone ever claimed it was.

 

[subshakerz]

Sunny's entire reputation vs pace was built up on his WI record, especially in the WI.

It's not what it's ever appeared to be.

Again, no one's suggesting that Sunny wasn't a top 10 guy, I literally just said it. But to somehow pretend that he was as good as Viv vs pace is antithetical to the truth.

I don't necessarily think Sunny is a lock for top 10 now. I have him at no.10 but can see him as 11/12.

 

[Johan]

Sunny's Pakistan record is very impressive, does anyone mind looking into what the average of the teams was in those matches?

 

[subshakerz]

Sunny's Pakistan record is very impressive, does anyone mind looking into what the average of the teams was in those matches?

Sunny had a great series in 78 but that was before peak Imran, and a good series in 82 in Imran's ATG series.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I have said, and repeatedly. Bradman is one, there's however an argument to be made.

And you know that's what I said, and you keep repeating it.

How is that not disingenuous.

You had Sobers as no 1. You even voted for him as no 1 in the Greatest Cricketers Poll.....

 

[capt_Luffy]

Viv did well against Eng pacers including peak Botham.

Viv was just a way better away performer than Lara, more consistent.

Again, the challenge was moreso movement than Pace. Against raw pace, the thing Viv is really known for, Viv's best and by large all the work is in Australia vs Lillee and Thomson.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

From an article. Batting averages of 2010s were up to early 2016, pitches ofc got lot worse for batting since 2017 ish. The 20s and 30s were roads but not that much more than the latter decades. It were next level roads compare to pre- WW1 but not in comparison to other decade.

I guess I have read an article where Bradman mentions this about how he wouldn’t have averaged 100 in earlier decade and 1950s since the wicket got spicer. He probably would have no idea about batting averages and pitches after 1950s being just as flat as his own decade. The 30s averaged 31.12, almost similar to some other decade. Take Bradman out of the equation and put a regular ATG record instead of his and there is no difference between his decade and so many other decade.

Decade	Batting Ave	Decade Batting Rank	Bowling Ave	Decade Bowling Rank
1870s-1910s	17.49 – 25.91	11 – 15	18.18 – 26.90	1 – 5
1920s	31.88	4	33.25	12
1930s	31.12	5	32.15	11
1940s	34.26	1	35.34	15
1950s	27.38	10	28.54	6
1960s	30.81	6	32.10	10
1970s	30.76	7	31.90	8
1980s	30.45	8	32.09	9
1990s	29.45	9	31.51	7
2000s	32.02	3	34.10	14
2010s	32.37	2	33.85	13

 

[BazBall21]

Again, the challenge was moreso movement than Pace. Against raw pace, the thing Viv is really known for, Viv's best and by large all the work is in Australia vs Lillee and Thomson.

Willis was the type of bowler that gets a bit more bounce out of the surface than most by proportion and Viv hammered him a few times.

 

[BazBall21]

2017-2024 has been a low scoring period with 2018, 2021 and 2024 particularly sparse in run making.

I suspect T20 has had a degree of adverse affect (and the cross format adjustments must also not be easy) but pitches have been a lot less flat than the 2000s.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Sunny's Pakistan record is very impressive, does anyone mind looking into what the average of the teams was in those matches?

In those matches Nazar, Abbas and Miandad scored more runs (well, Miandad equal). BUT, and for especially the 82/83 series, there were borderline prove that Pakistan was doing something with the ball. It was Imran's 40 wickets series, and while he did bowled ATG, the ball allegations are hard to ignore, especially given Pakistan were allowed to carry the ball back to dressing room and have the ball at the end of the day's play. Another batsman who was as good as Sunny was Mohinder Amarnath (that dude really confuses me, ATG in WI and Pakistan, arguably the best in both and Great in Australia but averages 30 at home).

 

[Johan]

From an article. Batting averages of 2010s were up to early 2016, pitches ofc got lot worse for batting since 2017 ish. The 20s and 30s were roads but not that much more than the latter decades. It were next level roads compare to pre- WW1 but not in comparison to other decade.

I guess I have read an article where Bradman mentions this about how he wouldn’t have averaged 100 in earlier decade and 1950s since the wicket got spicer. He probably would have no idea about batting averages and pitches after 1950s being just as flat as his own decade. The 30s averaged 31.12, almost similar to some other decade. Take Bradman out of the equation and put a regular ATG record instead of his and there is no difference between his decade and so many other decade.

Decade	Batting Ave	Decade Batting Rank	Bowling Ave	Decade Bowling Rank
1870s-1910s	17.49 – 25.91	11 – 15	18.18 – 26.90	1 – 5
1920s	31.88	4	33.25	12
1930s	31.12	5	32.15	11
1940s	34.26	1	35.34	15
1950s	27.38	10	28.54	6
1960s	30.81	6	32.10	10
1970s	30.76	7	31.90	8
1980s	30.45	8	32.09	9
1990s	29.45	9	31.51	7
2000s	32.02	3	34.10	14
2010s	32.37	2	33.85	13

look at those 50s numbers, see why Hutton is HIM