*Official* West Indies Tour of England, JULY 9th to 25th, 2024-- 3 TEST MATCHES

[Father Time]

Was at Trent Bridge today. Beautiful weather & couldn't understand why West Indies put England in..?? Looked a 450 minimum pitch. Duckett played sublimely & deserved more, Pope scored a hundred but deserved less! England were scoring at a ridiculous rate during the morning session. Crawley, Root, Brook, Stokes, all gave their wicket away after that. Fair play to the Spinners, particularly Sinclair who stopped the scoring rate, & took wickets. He bowled really well. England look very shaky & uncertain against spin. A very good day at a very nice English Test ground.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Alex hales and Jason Roy walked so duckett could run.

Jason Roy crawled on his belly at test level.

 

[danzydab]

Eng should've scored 500. Brook Root and Stokes threw away their wickets in typical bazball fashion, I wonder if this will ever stop.

Having said that, England are going in the right direction and batting alot more sensibly now.

This pitch is slow but not in a batting friendly way tho. It can be difficult to time the ball. Stokes will employ the bumper barrage tactic and Gus+Woody could be bowled to the ground.

 

[Molehill]

Was at Trent Bridge today. Beautiful weather & couldn't understand why West Indies put England in..?? Looked a 450 minimum pitch. Duckett played sublimely & deserved more, Pope scored a hundred but deserved less! England were scoring at a ridiculous rate during the morning session. Crawley, Root, Brook, Stokes, all gave their wicket away after that. Fair play to the Spinners, particularly Sinclair who stopped the scoring rate, & took wickets. He bowled really well. England look very shaky & uncertain against spin. A very good day at a very nice English Test ground.

I think Crawley was one of the few who got a good one, the rest got themselves out, and you can add Smith to that list. England need to ask themselves if they'd rather be 410 all out or 360-4 at the end of the day. The lack of ruthlessness gets exposed against the better teams, getting out to long hops is inexcusable.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Was at Trent Bridge today. Beautiful weather & couldn't understand why West Indies put England in..?? Looked a 450 minimum pitch. Duckett played sublimely & deserved more, Pope scored a hundred but deserved less! England were scoring at a ridiculous rate during the morning session. Crawley, Root, Brook, Stokes, all gave their wicket away after that. Fair play to the Spinners, particularly Sinclair who stopped the scoring rate, & took wickets. He bowled really well. England look very shaky & uncertain against spin. A very good day at a very nice English Test ground.

Ha, quite.

We can all draw the obvious inferences (complete misread of pitch/conditions or no faith in his batting line up) and neither is very flattering for Kraigg.

Although if the Windies are 500/2 at COP tonight I'm prepared to fully recant and bow to the great man's acumen.

 

[Blenkinsop]

I think Crawley was one of the few who got a good one, the rest got themselves out, and you can add Smith to that list. England need to ask themselves if they'd rather be 410 all out or 360-4 at the end of the day. The lack of ruthlessness gets exposed against the better teams, getting out to long hops is inexcusable.

Does playing in a Bazball style actually mean you're more likely to get out to a long hop though? That's a ball you're always going to attack whether you are in Bazball mode or not. I guess maybe you could argue that it would be safer to hit them along the ground and be happy to collect four rather than six.

 

[Howe_zat]

I think Crawley was one of the few who got a good one, the rest got themselves out, and you can add Smith to that list. England need to ask themselves if they'd rather be 410 all out or 360-4 at the end of the day. The lack of ruthlessness gets exposed against the better teams, getting out to long hops is inexcusable.

The idea that England mysteriously decided to be suboptimal instead of having made some mistakes today is madness and honestly arrogant as ****. You don't just get to decide to do better, you have to actually be good enough to pull it off.

Is there any evidence at all that more conservative play would be beneficial to guys like Crawley and Pope, who have basically doubled their output since the change in approach?

It makes sense to say England were just okay and not punished yesterday because it wasn't an especially high quality day from either side. It's silly to just assume they can score whatever they want if only they had listened to the sensible tactical decision to 'do better'.

 

[Molehill]

Does playing in a Bazball style actually mean you're more likely to get out to a long hop though? That's a ball you're always going to attack whether you are in Bazball mode or not. I guess maybe you could argue that it would be safer to hit them along the ground and be happy to collect four rather than six.

I'm pretty certain Stokes got out because Smith had smacked a long hop for 6 the over before and he got into a macho competition on it rather than doing the sensible thing.

But I guess this is just what Bazball is. The moment you try and apply some common sense to it, it loses some of what it really is.

 

[Howe_zat]

Also '450 par' and '500 par' is the top 1% of tests in history, not just good batting conditions. I know some people are using 'par' to describe 'what I'd like', but that's not the same thing.

 

[Nintendo]

I'm pretty certain Stokes got out because Smith had smacked a long hop for 6 the over before and he got into a macho competition on it rather than doing the sensible thing.

But I guess this is just what Bazball is. The moment you try and apply some common sense to it, it loses some of what it really is.

Nah there's definitely room for common sense. Most of what they did when mccullum came in (using your feet to the pacers, the three fielders on the face for the drive to usman last ashes, ETC) had some common sense behind it. Batsmen couldn't tell which way the wobble ball was going to go after pitching based on seam position, so why let it pitch? If boland is gonna bowl that delivery at 130-135 on a good length every ball, it's fairly easy to come down the deck and force him to try something different.

 

[Molehill]

The idea that England mysteriously decided to be suboptimal instead of having made some mistakes today is madness and honestly arrogant as ****. You don't just get to decide to do better, you have to actually be good enough to pull it off.

Is there any evidence at all that more conservative play would be beneficial to guys like Crawley and Pope, who have basically doubled their output since the change in approach?

It makes sense to say England were just okay and not punished yesterday because it wasn't an especially high quality day from either side. It's silly to just assume they can score whatever they want if only they had listened to the sensible tactical decision to 'do better'.

I kind of agree, but last year they threw away a strong position in the 2nd Test (188-1 became 325 all out) by some utterly daft batting. They lost that match by 43 runs. There is room for improvement, and knowing when to rein in the big shots is certainly one aspect. To suggest otherwise seems counter-productive.

 

[Father Time]

Crawley played a dead straight ball very lazily with a angled bat. Regarding spinners, is this the blueprint to defeat Bazball? Play at least three spinners on these Bazball pitches as the English players really seem to struggle against it?

 

[GIMH]

I'm pretty certain Stokes got out because Smith had smacked a long hop for 6 the over before and he got into a macho competition on it rather than doing the sensible thing.

But I guess this is just what Bazball is. The moment you try and apply some common sense to it, it loses some of what it really is.

Nah this is nonsense. Stokes plays that shot whoever is at the other end

 

[Beamer]

Eng should've scored 500. Brook Root and Stokes threw away their wickets in typical bazball fashion, I wonder if this will ever stop.

Having said that, England are going in the right direction and batting alot more sensibly now.

This pitch is slow but not in a batting friendly way tho. It can be difficult to time the ball. Stokes will employ the bumper barrage tactic and Gus+Woody could be bowled to the ground.

Not sure I buy the pitch is difficult to time the ball. Did you see Duckett basically just touch the ball without much follow through and it just kept flying to the boundary? Trent Bridge is also the fastest outfield I have seen outside of India.

Still, there was a little bit of movement occasionally and our batting lineup is terrible, so we will likely make the pitch look awful. I just hope for a little more positive intent than the last test.

 

[Beamer]

Ha, quite.

We can all draw the obvious inferences (complete misread of pitch/conditions or no faith in his batting line up) and neither is very flattering for Kraigg.

Although if the Windies are 500/2 at COP tonight I'm prepared to fully recant and bow to the great man's acumen.

It's very simple. No belief in the batting lineup combined with a suspicion that England are slightly weaker when having to set the pace at the start of a test.

I really don't think it matters when our batting is this bad.

 

[Howe_zat]

I kind of agree, but last year they threw away a strong position in the 2nd Test (188-1 became 325 all out) by some utterly daft batting. They lost that match by 43 runs. There is room for improvement, and knowing when to rein in the big shots is certainly one aspect. To suggest otherwise seems counter-productive.

What are you even saying they should do though? When should they reign in the big shots?

It's easy to say 'you shouldn't have done that' when you've just messed it up and spooned a catch. But if the bowler sends down a long hop and you're out there on 65 what better scoring oppertunity have you got?

Like yeah, it'd be advantageous if they always scored more runs. Just don't convince yourself that's some kind of insight into batting that they've all missed.

 

[Beamer]

What are you even saying they should do though? When should they reign in the big shots?

It's easy to say 'you shouldn't have done that' when you've just messed it up and spooned a catch. But if the bowler sends down a long hop and you're out there on 65 what better scoring oppertunity have you got?

Like yeah, it'd be advantageous if they always scored more runs. Just don't convince yourself that's some kind of insight into batting that they've all missed.

Isn't it more about individual style and strengths? For example, I think Duckett will just get out early if he indeterminately pokes at balls outside off because he is incapable of leaving. He is better off carrying on the assault.

Crawley is better in an attacking mindset but I do feel he has to get himself in for a few overs first. But once he's in, he is better off trying to dominate as frankly, based on his average, he doesn't get in that often.

On several occasions, Stokes has overdone the bazball style and essentially descended into slogging. I think he is better off playing like he did yesterday and scoring at a strike rate of around 60. He should have hit it for 6 yesterday; it was just bad execution, IMHO.

Root is an odd one because I feel he looks out of place often and should be playing his own style but his record under Stokes and Mcullum is pretty solid, so it's hard to argue against it.

So yes, I think it should be down to the individual batter to play to their strengths and pace, rather than a team decision to reign it in occasionally.

One of the reasons we are so bad at red ball batting at the moment is because Kraigg is building a team in his own style of prod and poke when Athanaze and Mckenzie are natural strokemakers. It doesn't make sense.

 

[Uppercut]

I don't mean to pick on you Molehill, but Bazball is far too interesting to warrant such boring criticisms as "have more common sense" and "know when to rein it in". As a general rule any criticism should be:

1. Specific, relating to a particular shot, bowler, field placing, or match situation where batsmen seem likely to get out a lot without producing enough runs to compensate
2. Not based solely on a single dismissal, no matter how annoying that dismissal happened to be.

 

[Yeoman]

What are you even saying they should do though? When should they reign in the big shots?

It's easy to say 'you shouldn't have done that' when you've just messed it up and spooned a catch. But if the bowler sends down a long hop and you're out there on 65 what better scoring oppertunity have you got?

Like yeah, it'd be advantageous if they always scored more runs. Just don't convince yourself that's some kind of insight into batting that they've all missed.

I was at Lord’s on the day to which @Molehill refers and it was the most sustained example of utter stupidity that I have seen in cricket. The Australian attack was posing not threat at all so they set the field back for the hook and bowled bouncers. As soon as this started it was clear from the stands that the only way that the batsmen could get out was by aggressively taking on the short ball. Either they should have simply ducked and worn down the bowlers or played the ball down and run singles to the widely spaced field. Instead Batman after batsman took the aggressive option, hooked and perished.

Bazball is undoubtedly an improvement on England’s previous batting, however this was undoubtedly a case where they took their aggressive strategy too far. Through this, and the ****y first day declaration at Edgbaston, they probably threw away the first two ashes tests.

 

[Howe_zat]

I was at Lord’s on the day to which @Molehill refers and it was the most sustained example of utter stupidity that I have seen in cricket. The Australian attack was posing not threat at all so they set the field back for the hook and bowled bouncers. As soon as this started it was clear from the stands that the only way that the batsmen could get out was by aggressively taking on the short ball. Either they should have simply ducked and work down the bowlers or played the ball down and run singles to the widely spaced field. Instead Batman after batsman took the aggressive option, hooked and perished.

Bazball is undoubtedly an improvement on England’s previous batting, however this was undoubtedly a case where they took their aggressive strategy too far. Through this, and the ****y first day declaration at Edgbaston, they probably threw away the first two ashes tests.

Yeah if you've got particular criticism that makes sense I'm hearing you out, and I've got absolutely no time for early declarations either.

It's the notion of 'they could have chosen to be 360-4 if they had left the long hops' that irks me.