Richard Hadlee vs Imran Khan

[smash84]

[

Didn't dispute that, that's why it was very good instead of "average" as you referenced.

It is not very good. It is ATG. Just admit your mistake once again. You did it once today about S Waugh.

Come on now, you can do it again.

 

[smash84]

I don't see an issue with Imran's average of 25 in WI. It came at a great strike rate (though undoubtedly boosted by a weakened batting lineup in 1988).

His overall SR of close to 60 overseas a bit meh though by ATG standards. It is fair enough to take out his debut year and 90s, but that doesn't improve it much. He has 3 ten wicket hauls overseas which is great. Outside that, he has a lot of dry non penetrative spells.

Most top tier ATG bowlers (even the much maligned Ambrose) do better in that aspect.

I wonder how much of his SR is affected by the 1987 series in India and 89 series in pakistan which were played on some of flattest decks ever.

 

[kyear2]

An average. As in a bowling average. I'm not saying you called it middling- I'm saying It's a whole lot better than very good.

And we just disagree. Don't see the issue.

 

[subshakerz]

And we just disagree. Don't see the issue.

Is Ambrose in SA ATG level?

 

[kyear2]

WSC stats being used to pump up guys like Viv but ignoring those same numbers for Imran doesn't make much sense.

Have u ever seen me calculate in Viv's average from WSC to make a point? I've said he was one of only 3 batsmen to do well, and it adds to his legacy, and shows what he was doing for two years in the peak of his prime.

I also use it for Barry to prove his quality absent a full test portfolio.

That's different to simply saying that in Imran's test career, him averaging 28 in Australia was below par. No one is saying he couldn't bowl well in Australia or didn't have good performances there.

 

[ankitj]

He averaged 25 in the Caribbean, it was a very good performance, not the ATG one you propagate it to be.

Bowlers who averaged under 30 and took 10+ wickets in WI during their era of greatness. Imran has 48 wickets, only Kapil has 30+

 

[kyear2]

Imran hadn't even matured as a fast bowler yet, yet ended with better numbers than Holding, Roberts and Lillee. So it's to his favor.

He also played less matches, and we rate him above all of those bowlers in any event.

Also to note, Procter did kinda outperform him though, at least average wise... Oh what was lost for him, Barry and Pollock.

 

[Bolo.]

And we just disagree. Don't see the issue.

Are you basing this opinion on anything besides bowling average? And are you contextualizing the bowling average, or just looking at the number?

 

[subshakerz]

He also played less matches, and we rate him above all of those bowlers in any event.

Also to note, Procter did kinda outperform him though, at least average wise... Oh what was lost for him, Barry and Pollock.

Fine but 5 tests is a good size series sample. Why is his WSC performance completely absent when you discuss Imran in Aus as being sub-par?

 

[subshakerz]

Are you basing this opinion on anything besides bowling average? And are you contextualizing the bowling average, or just looking at the number?

He is basing it on the bowler. Nowhere else would he apply this standard.

 

[kyear2]

[


It is not very good. It is ATG. Just admit your mistake once again. You did it once today about S Waugh.

Come on now, you can do it again.

It was a very good performance.

In '87, Viv missed the first game, and the batting lineup at that point was no where near what it was even in '84. Lloyd was gone and the heart of the middle was Hooper and Logie. Greenidge was past his best and being told he was blind, Richardson was our best bat at the time, outside of a declining Viv.

So no, 25 over the course of his career wasn't an ATG performance, even taking into account the s/r. As I would have said, what Ambrose did in Australia or Steyn in India is what I would call ATG

 

[subshakerz]

It was a very good performance.

In '87, Viv missed the first game, and the batting lineup at that point was no where near what it was even in '84. Lloyd was gone and the heart of the middle was Hooper and Logie. Greenidge was past his best and being told he was blind, Richardson was our best bat at the time, outside of a declining Viv.

So no, 25 over the course of his career wasn't an ATG performance, even taking into account the s/r. As I would have said, what Ambrose did in Australia or Steyn in India is what I would call ATG

Would you consider Imran in WI as a worldclass performance? Yes or no.

 

[kyear2]

Fine but 5 tests is a good size series sample. Why is his WSC performance completely absent when you discuss Imran in Aus as being sub-par?

Did you read what I said.

This is a totally different discussion to saying that in his test career, his average of 28 was below par.

Procter had a better average than him in WSC, are we saying he was better than Imran based on that as well?

Imran was arguably a top 6 fast bowler of all time, WSC is factored into his greatness, he was a great bowler. That doesn't take away from the question of why he averaged 28 in Australia with such a s/r.

 

[Coronis]

Did you read what I said.

This is a totally different discussion to saying that in his test career, his average of 28 was below par.

Procter had a better average than him in WSC, are we saying he was better than Imran based on that as well?

Imran was arguably a top 6 fast bowler of all time, WSC is factored into his greatness, he was a great bowler. That doesn't take away from the question of why he averaged 28 in Australia with such a s/r.

Of course.

 

[subshakerz]

Imran was arguably a top 6 fast bowler of all time, WSC is factored into his greatness, he was a great bowler. That doesn't take away from the question of why he averaged 28 in Australia with such a s/r.

How is WSC factored in his greatness if you refuse to factor it (in fact never mention it) in his Aus record? That is just disingenuous.

Here is what you said about WSC:

I agree not superior, very much on par.

So can we have a honest discussion about Imran in Aus?

 

[kyear2]

He is basing it on the bowler. Nowhere else would he apply this standard.

An ATG performance is based on the average and the WPM. If it were 25 absent the ridiculous wpm, it would have been a good performance.

I've also seen the arguments that Steyn in. England and Australia were excellent, and I also disagree. It was relatively understandable but still not great.

ATG for me has to come in around 22, regardless of the wpm (not saying it can be 3, bit even with a high wpm, still has to be showing the average)

Some want to make this about Imran so badly, when in reality it's being made to be this, because it's Imran. He was below par in Australia and India as well. His away performances were not top tier ATG standard. Which is worse, considering he was in the bowlers era (India aside of course)

 

[kyear2]

Of course.

But of course, lol

 

[subshakerz]

An ATG performance is based on the average and the WPM. If it were 25 absent the ridiculous wpm, it would have been a good performance.

Is Imran in WI a worldclass performance? Yes or no?

I've also seen the arguments that Steyn in. England and Australia were excellent, and I also disagree. It was relatively understandable but still not great.

So you say Steyn is below par in Aus and Eng, yet don't mind rating him above Ambrose as 4th best pacer ever who is much better in those countries, while you knock Imran for his away record. Interesting. And claim to be consistent.

ATG for me has to come in around 22, regardless of the wpm (not saying it can be 3, bit even with a high wpm, still has to be showing the average)

Contradiction.

Is Ambrose in SA an ATG performance? Yes or no?

 

[subshakerz]

Nice to know that according to @kyear2, Marshall in India, McGrath in SA and Hadlee in England are all below ATG standards.

Strange how he never mentions that though.

 

[Bolo.]

An ATG performance is based on the average and the WPM. If it were 25 absent the ridiculous wpm, it would have been a good performance.

I've also seen the arguments that Steyn in. England and Australia were excellent, and I also disagree. It was relatively understandable but still not great.

ATG for me has to come in around 22, regardless of the wpm (not saying it can be 3, bit even with a high wpm, still has to be showing the average)

Some want to make this about Imran so badly, when in reality it's being made to be this, because it's Imran. He was below par in Australia and India as well. His away performances were not top tier ATG standard. Which is worse, considering he was in the bowlers era (India aside of course)

Almost no bowlers have a career average below 22. 22 away vs the strongest team of the time is clearly better than 22 career. Even if average was the only way to assess (and it very much isn't),ywhere you draw a line is wrong.