kyear2
Cricketer Of The Year
So I guess the new subject of interest will be captaincy.
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Richard Hadlee vs Imran Khan
- Thread starter PlayerComparisons
- Start date
shortpitched713
International Captain
Miller or Imran?
capt_Luffy
International Vice-Captain
He is talking about Miller. Well, I do agree. As a batsman Sobers is ahead of Miller the allrounder. But yeah, Sobers the bowler was alright for the most part. Excellent versatility, but I would rather have a 37 averaging middle order specialist batsman than a 34 averaging specialist bowler.....
Coronis
International Coach
For anyone curious (@PlayerComparisons) this is Nathan Astle’s batting vs Daniel Vettori’s bowling.
Red_Ink_Squid
Cricketer Of The Year
capt_Luffy
International Vice-Captain
That's a surprisingly accurate interpretation.....
Migara
International Coach
God > Man
Chin Music
State 12th Man
I've given it to Hadlee. He was still a brilliant bowler right at the end of his career. Imran tended to bowl less into his mid 30s and concentrated more with the bat. As pointed out above, Imran wasn't that good a bowler for a fair number of his earlier years. Possibly more destructive at his peak when he was real quick.
shortpitched713
International Captain
Imran has by far the best 30 odd Test peak for any bowler that ever lived. Injuries simply broke him down from a level in his bowling which he had to build up after struggling and failing so hard in international cricket in his first stint from 71 to 74.
Considering the career in stages, there was the GOAT bowling all-rounder peak from 80-86 ( the latter part of which I think he was the best allrounder, period), but he had already improved into a very lethal bowler throughout 77-79. And althrough he had injury concerns he was still a very, very good allrounder when fit in 87-88, and a very good batting all-rounder when fit after that.
Considering the career in stages, there was the GOAT bowling all-rounder peak from 80-86 ( the latter part of which I think he was the best allrounder, period), but he had already improved into a very lethal bowler throughout 77-79. And althrough he had injury concerns he was still a very, very good allrounder when fit in 87-88, and a very good batting all-rounder when fit after that.
shortpitched713
International Captain
For the question of bowling vs batting all-rounder value that comes up here quite often.
I do think it's quite telling, that there are only 2 of the latter type in history who batted at an ATG/ATVG level, whereas with the bowlers, even if you look past Imran and Hadlee, then you've got S. Pollock in the wings, and Keith Miller, and more onward depending on the bar for ATVG. I think that speaks to the enduring value of the role in a team of a specialist level bowler who can more than carry his weight with the bat.
The opposite is something more of a luxury, and one that can very quickly veer into the realm of misallocation of a critical batsman's finite energies. Both types of all-rounder are becoming more and more rare, but this is why my intuition would lead me to favor an all-rounder of the Imran/S. Pollock type, rather than the Sobers/Kallis type, as being more likely to bring the higher value.
Still a huge fan of Sobers, btw, especially as a pure batsman. Just think that kyear in particular is contributing to a mythologizing of the role he actually played, which is beyond credulity for most of us having watched a lot of modern Test cricket ( but probably not too much of Sobers).
I do think it's quite telling, that there are only 2 of the latter type in history who batted at an ATG/ATVG level, whereas with the bowlers, even if you look past Imran and Hadlee, then you've got S. Pollock in the wings, and Keith Miller, and more onward depending on the bar for ATVG. I think that speaks to the enduring value of the role in a team of a specialist level bowler who can more than carry his weight with the bat.
The opposite is something more of a luxury, and one that can very quickly veer into the realm of misallocation of a critical batsman's finite energies. Both types of all-rounder are becoming more and more rare, but this is why my intuition would lead me to favor an all-rounder of the Imran/S. Pollock type, rather than the Sobers/Kallis type, as being more likely to bring the higher value.
Still a huge fan of Sobers, btw, especially as a pure batsman. Just think that kyear in particular is contributing to a mythologizing of the role he actually played, which is beyond credulity for most of us having watched a lot of modern Test cricket ( but probably not too much of Sobers).
kyear2
Cricketer Of The Year
Don't understand what having more of them has anything to do with value.
Harder to maintain a high bowling load while batting in the top order.
Plus, if you're calling Hadlee and Miller bowling all rounders, then no reason Simpson can't be seen as a batting one.
How am I mythologizing his role?
He was a top 5 batsman, and literally the most versatile bowler ever, not to add a top tier slip catcher. He filled every role from opening the bowling to bowling grunt overs into the wind with defensive fields.
Patience and Accuracy+Gut
State Vice-Captain
Hadlee probably. But both definitely in the same league.
kyear2
Cricketer Of The Year
I would say that between Hadlee and Imran...
Ambrose, Steyn, and arguably Lillee?
subshakerz
International Coach
None of them are better than Imran really.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
HouHsiaoHsien
International Debutant
Steyn is marginally ahead. And you agreed Steyn and Imran are touch and go, and you wouldn’t mind someone rating Steyn ahead. But Imran’s easily ahead of Lillee. Amazing in SC, amazing in WI, good in England, decent in Aus, and decent in Nz(better than Hadlee in the same series). The best peak ever, and successful series in peak at home(especially the one against India in 1982), in WI(especially the 1987 one), in Aus and England.
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PlayerComparisons
International Regular
Steyn should win that on peer rating
subshakerz
International Coach
Yes it's close between Steyn and Imran.
subshakerz
International Coach
More to do with lack of other ATGs in his time, like Lillee, but I don't mind that point being used in his favor. Standing out in an era is to his credit.
sayon basak
U19 12th Man
Jadeja is god