Warne vs Steyn (Test bowling)

[shortpitched713]

His record isnt really qualitatively different than Imran's. The only reason he gets ranked ahead of him is the whole 'succeeded in a flat era' silly argument.

Which, it turns out, isn't a silly argument. Performance is always relative to the context of matches actually played in one's era. Not to some across times "ideal".

 

[subshakerz]

Which, it turns out, isn't a silly argument. Performance is always relative to the context of matches actually played in one's era. Not to some across times "ideal".

Yeah except half of his career is on greentops which makes it silly.

 

[shortpitched713]

We just voted him in as the 4th best quick. Seems fair enough to me.

And if he loses out to a top 2 spinner in this pole, also fair enough.

Yeah, he gets the edge over Ambrose now. But I think his place is nowhere short of the other top 4 (except possibly McGrath).

CW consensus has only changed a little bit, in favor of McGrath, so that in the current order it's M & M, then Hadlee (who gets an a small, but committed contingent for top spot), and then a gap with Steyn.

But Steyn is the best strike bowler of the lot, and did it with less support than Marshall. There are other factors in favor of Marshall, notably more consistency, but I don't see Steyn as below him. And he had very different circumstances and style to both McGrath and Hadlee, so there's points in favor or against both in a comparison. But Steyn isn't truly seen as their peer and gets the short stick. Reasons for that could be many, including even demographics/rose tinted glasses, but I think Steyn really should be seen as shoulder to shoulder with almost any giant of the game.

 

[shortpitched713]

I am copying someone’s quote and modifying it .

In next 50 years , there might be 5 another Steyn but there would be 0 Warne .

Steyn is the superlative strike bowler. I think you greatly underestimate him.

 

[Sunil1z]

Yeah, he gets the edge over Ambrose. But I think his place is nowhere short of the other top 4 (except possibly McGrath).

CW consensus has only changed a little bit, in favor of McGrath, so that it's M & M, then Hadlee (who gets an a small, but committed contingent for top spot), and then a gap with Steyn.

But Steyn is the best strike bowler of the lot, and did it with less support than Marshall. There are other factors in favor of Marshall, notably more consistency, but I don't see Steyn as below him. And he had very different circumstances and style to both McGrath and Hadlee, so there's points in favor or against both in a comparison. But Steyn isn't truly seen as their peer and gets the short stick. Reasons for that could be many, including even demographics/rose tinted glasses, but I think Steyn really should be seen as shoulder to shoulder with almost any giant of the game.

I think you are slightly young here . So , I am reminding you some Steyn stats.

SA couldn’t beat both IND and ENG at home when Steyn and Morkel were their strike bowlers in 2009 and 2010 . It was when Philander emerged in 2011 , they started to hammer Teams . And I don’t think they would have won in 2012 in ENG without Philander .

 

[Sunil1z]

Steyn is the superlative strike bowler. I think you greatly underestimate him.

I rate him very highly . But he isn’t superior to Warne .

 

[shortpitched713]

I know the stats points in favor of Steyn aren't everyone's cup of tea, so the last point I have for him is an intangible. Unlike other high performing SA greats, he absolutely wasn't a choker. He was a leader of the attack, and could be counted on, against both the very best, and even if conditions weren't the best for him. 2012 to 2016 run for SA as the number 1 ranked Test team, is in no small part due to that attribute of his. And his team contained less ATG elements than most of the other top of the pyramid bowlers were blessed with.

 

[shortpitched713]

I think you are slightly young here . So , I am reminding you some Steyn stats.

SA couldn’t beat both IND and ENG at home when Steyn and Morkel were their strike bowlers in 2009 and 2010 . It was when Philander emerged in 2011 , they started to hammer Teams . And I don’t think they would have won in 2012 in ENG without Philander .

You're speaking my language. Philander to me is an ATG, so of course bringing him into the side would help greatly.

I still think out of the consensus top 7 bowlers all time, he had less overall support than all except Hadlee and Murali.

 

[subshakerz]

And spinners have tougher conditions than pacers at most places.

Pacers and spinners have the same conditions. It's just that spinners tend to be handicapped more.

 

[shortpitched713]

I think you are slightly young here .

If only...

 

[Sunil1z]

You're speaking my language. Philander to me is an ATG, so of course bringing him into the side would help greatly.

I still think out of the consensus top 7 bowlers all time, he had less overall support than all except Hadlee and Murali.

I agree with your POV

However if we consider 2004 SL series , 2006 SA series and Ashes 2005 , then Warne didn’t need McGrath to perform at ATG level .

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Philander to me is an ATG

 

[subshakerz]

Why is that a silly argument?

Because he played half of his career in SA. He probably has a higher share of bowler friendly wickets he played on than most bowlers.

 

[Sunil1z]

Pacers and spinners have the same conditions. It's just that spinners tend to be handicapped more.

No, they don’t get the same Condition.

Pacer always get to bowl at new batsmen with new ball which even in worse case does something for atleast 10 overs

Spinners on the other hand have to bowl to a completely settled batsmen many times . It isn’t the same thing .

 

[Coronis]

Pacers and spinners have the same conditions. It's just that spinners tend to be handicapped more.

Nah. They generally don’t get the new ball and often only enter the attack when batsmen are already set.

 

[Coronis]

I agree with your POV

However if we consider 2004 SL series , 2006 SA series and Ashes 2005 , then Warne didn’t need McGrath to perform at ATG level .

2004 SL extremely odd series to bring up..

 

[Bolo.]

Yeah, he gets the edge over Ambrose now. But I think his place is nowhere short of the other top 4 (except possibly McGrath).

CW consensus has only changed a little bit, in favor of McGrath, so that in the current order it's M & M, then Hadlee (who gets an a small, but committed contingent for top spot), and then a gap with Steyn.

But Steyn is the best strike bowler of the lot, and did it with less support than Marshall. There are other factors in favor of Marshall, notably more consistency, but I don't see Steyn as below him. And he had very different circumstances and style to both McGrath and Hadlee, so there's points in favor or against both in a comparison. But Steyn isn't truly seen as their peer and gets the short stick. Reasons for that could be many, including even demographics/rose tinted glasses, but I think Steyn really should be seen as shoulder to shoulder with almost any giant of the game.

I'm the opposite on this.

I could understand rating him ahead of Mcgrath or Hadlee on account of preference for style. But not Marshall. I reckon Marshall is pretty much just a straight upgrade on him. Steyn is the only one in this group of 4 who I don't think has a reasonable argument for being the best (yip, even Hadlee), so he kinda loses to the others by default.

It is a group of 4 to me though. He is that good.

 

[Sunil1z]

2004 SL extremely odd series to bring up..

AUS whitewashed a very good SL side 3-0 in SL without McGrath . Warne deserves huge credit for it .

 

[Coronis]

AUS whitewashed a very good SL side 3-0 in SL without McGrath . Warne deserves huge credit for it .

Presumed you were talking about the SL series in Australia in 04.

 

[subshakerz]

I agree with your POV

However if we consider 2004 SL series , 2006 SA series and Ashes 2005 , then Warne didn’t need McGrath to perform at ATG level .

2006 SA was Clark.