Do SC Pacers Deserve More Credit For Home Performances?

[PlayerComparisons]

It's a winner mentality.

Anyone who didn’t ball tamper in that era should be penalized actually. You’ve got to make the most of all your resources.

 

[Burgey]

It's a big questionmark since swing is a fundamental element of SC success and I never saw Ambrose do it.

It's not a question mark, it's a product of what worked for him as he developed as a cricketer. If he'd had the misfortune to be born in Pakistan, he'd have come up on pitches which required him to swing it around. He's a world class sportsman, Do you think he'd have just plodded along doing what didn't work in his own conditions? Come on. It's ridiculous.

 

[subshakerz]

Best of luck with that. That notion is absurd....

Is it really absurd to say on face value, Kapil isn't a 29 average bowler but moreso should be looked at as 27-28?

 

[subshakerz]

Cough cough Walsh. He didn't swing it at all...

He used cutters.

 

[Sunil1z]

Is it really absurd to say on face value, Kapil isn't a 29 average bowler but moreso should be looked at as 27-28?

And I think people rate him as 27-28 bowler . Name me few 27-28 avg bowlers who are rated higher than Kapil ?

 

[Slifer]

He used cutters.

It's still not swing, therefore you don't always need swing to succeed in Asia. And Curtly could cut the ball like anyone else. Not to mention earlier in his career, he bowled a fuller length including a dependable yorker.

 

[Burgey]

Is it really absurd to say on face value, Kapil isn't a 29 average bowler but moreso should be looked at as 27-28?

It kind of is when there's a 400 plus wicket sample size as a determinant of his average. He played a reasonable number of tests in most countries too. Weird he performed so poorly in NZ and England, would have expected him to be much better there given his MO. Can forgive him the SA stats - small sample and was at the fag end of a long career.

I have a memory of him being excellent here in 91/92. Swung it around and troubled most of our blokes, not sure if the stats bore it out.

 

[subshakerz]

It's not a question mark, it's a product of what worked for him as he developed as a cricketer. If he'd had the misfortune to be born in Pakistan, he'd have come up on pitches which required him to swing it around. He's a world class sportsman, Do you think he'd have just plodded along doing what didn't work in his own conditions? Come on. It's ridiculous.

I get your point. I just see swing as something natural based on wrist position. Maybe he could have developed that though.

 

[subshakerz]

And I think people rate him as 27-28 bowler . Name me few 27-28 avg bowlers who are rated higher than Kapil ?

Botham gets bandied about. But I don't think people do see Kapil as 27/28.

 

[Sunil1z]

Botham gets bandied about.

Botham gets rated higher because of his ridiculous peak.
Do you think Steve Smith should be rated lower than Dravid if Smith’s final average is 50.** ?

 

[Daemon]

ITT:

- subz teams up with other indian posters for the first time
- sunilz argues against giving further credit to indian quicks

we’re in bizarro territory

 

[Burgey]

Botham gets bandied about.

He at least belongs in the argument given both are allrounders and played in pretty much the same era. Those comparisons are going to be made. As has been noted, Botham's peak was awesome but he also feasted on some bog average Aus sides in England in 81 and 85.

 

[Slifer]

Is it really absurd to say on face value, Kapil isn't a 29 average bowler but moreso should be looked at as 27-28?

No. Because he averaged 29 not 27-28. He played tests outside Asia as well, where if he was good enough, he'd capitalize on those conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

It kind of is when there's a 400 plus wicket sample size as a determinant of his average. He played a reasonable number of tests in most countries too. Weird he performed so poorly in NZ and England, would have expected him to be much better there given his MO. Can forgive him the SA stats - small sample and was at the fag end of a long career.

I have a memory of him being excellent here in 91/92. Swung it around and troubled most of our blokes, not sure if the stats bore it out.

Yeah so the trend I am getting here is that folks are taking away stats in England or so and saying therefore we should just take home record as is and not so special. Whereas our view is that home record itself is worth more than it looks and shouldn't be downplayed based on his other performances.

 

[subshakerz]

No. Because he averaged 29 not 27-28. He played tests outside Asia as well, where if he was good enough, he'd capitalize on those conditions.

And I argue him averaging 26 in India is worth more than what that average presents.

 

[OverratedSanity]

They know it's true but they don't want to take the argument to it's logical end.

Yes. Very confusing tbh.

 

[Burgey]

The trend I'm getting is that cricketers develop different skill sets based on where they grow up and the conditions in which they play. if they grow up where decks are flat they will try to take the pitches out of the game by learning to swing it prodigiously; if they grow up on faster, bouncier decks they'll hit the towel and look for subtle movement off the seam and try to hit the splice of the bat; if they're in swing friendly conditions like England they'll produce mediocre medium pacers who just present the seam upright and let the clouds do the work. If they grow up on dust bowls, then worst of all they'll become finger spinners.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Not ridiculous to think that if Dev played for Eng, he would have had a 24/32 home away split instead of the 26/32 split he had playing for Ind

 

[Sunil1z]

No. Because he averaged 29 not 27-28. He played tests outside Asia as well, where if he was good enough, he'd capitalize on those conditions.

We should use the same logic and start treating Lara as 47 overseas batsman

 

[subshakerz]

Yes. Very confusing tbh.

To some up their argument: 'Unless you succeed in these away tests on easier pitches, you succeeding for half your career on more difficult pitches is meaningless'.

An utterly bizarre take.