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Do SC Pacers Deserve More Credit For Home Performances?

H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
ankitj said:
Yes. Steyn and McGrath get a lot of credit for their superb subcontinent record. It's why they edge out Lillee in polls on this forum.
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Steyn, Marshall are another level in SC, cause Mcgrath despite being brilliant here has non fifer and didn’t really rip through lineups like Steyn ir Marshall
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Slifer said:
I'd like to know who these bowlers are you speak of. Imran and Wasim are both rated in the top 10 pacers of all time. What more do you want than that?
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It's more to do with it being raised as a valid argument with those considered in the near competition, which at present it is not. Its not raised as a point of Imran with Ambrose or Wasim with Lillee.

And applies to Kapil, Vaas and other. For me it's a clincher of why I have Kapil over Botham as a bowler.

Slifer said:
Using random non Asian bowlers, McGrath for me at least, gets extra credit for doing well in a high run scoring era, the guy kept two atg batsmen in check (Sachin and Lara) and was the spearhead of arguably the goat team. Plus he played at a time when other similar greats had retired, so he stood out more. Then you have a Walsh who was peerless in Asia but sucked azz in more favorable conditions in Australia. Nobody gives him credit for doing well in Asia. So it's not always the case that we big up none Asian players who do well in the SC. That's extra gravy for bowlers who are already great around the world: Hadlee, McGrath, and Marshall,
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Marshall was genuinely great in Asia. Hadlee and McGrath not so much.

And it's absurd to reward McGrath for 'high scoring era' and not reward Imran and Wasim and other SC pacers who undoubtedly played on more tougher pitches as a whole.
 
Burgey

Burgey

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subshakerz said:
Ok but let's use some common sense and say it is far easier for an up and coming pacer to adapt and thrive in certain conditions.

England has produced many, many reasonably good seamers of the 27-29 average category, India barely a handful. Are we going to pretend that is just down to England just being blessed with more skill or is it just objectively harder to be pacer in India historically given the conditions, regardless of adaption.
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It’s because less people in England are vegetarian
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
subshakerz said:
It's more to do with it being raised as a valid argument with those considered in the near competition, which at present it is not. Its not raised as a point of Imran with Ambrose or Wasim with Lillee.

And applies to Kapil, Vaas and other. For me it's a clincher of why I have Kapil over Botham as a bowler.


Marshall was genuinely great in Asia. Hadlee and McGrath not so much.

And it's absurd to reward McGrath for 'high scoring era' and not reward Imran and Wasim and other SC pacers who undoubtedly played on more tougher pitches as a whole.
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You're welcome to reward them all you want but just remember, the SC is not the end all and be all. McGrath was also outstanding in England, NZ etc. More so than those other two.

And we do reward Imran and Wasim. They're both solidly in the top 10. I think most of us have already said the top 10 fast bowlers are all relatively close.

I personally don't bother with the Botham and dev debates because quite frankly I didn't particularly follow their careers that closely.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Slifer said:
You're welcome to reward them all you want but just remember, the SC is not the end all and be all. McGrath was also outstanding in England, NZ etc. More so than those other two.

And we do reward Imran and Wasim. They're both solidly in the top 10. I think most of us have already said the top 10 fast bowlers are all relatively close.

I personally don't bother with the Botham and dev debates because quite frankly I didn't particularly follow their careers that closely.
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Your post reminds me of the 'can of worms' comment at the beginning.

Basically, you are already comfortable with your rankings already, so regardless of whatever validity of their home performance, let's keep the status quo as opposed to reevaluating your assessment.

Because tough conditions arguments only apply to Steyn and McGrath, not SC cas it's not that important anyways.
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
subshakerz said:
Sorry I missed that. Yeah those occasions are quite exceptional but not totally surprising given the quality of bowlers involved.
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Therefore, great fast bowlers regardless of conditions can find a way. Make no mistake, Asia is genuinely likely more difficult to bowl pace than places like NZ. But how much more credit do you give Asian bowlers? How much more to non Asian bowlers who perform in Asia? And what about Asian bowlers who suck (relatively speaking) outside Asia. Fwiw, I highly doubt anyone is losing too much sleep if an atg xi is chosen and Ambrose misses out for Wasim or Imran. I wouldn't....
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Slifer said:
Therefore, great fast bowlers regardless of conditions can find a way. Make no mistake, Asia is genuinely likely more difficult to bowl pace than places like NZ. But how much more credit do you give Asian bowlers? How much more to non Asian bowlers who perform in Asia? And what about Asian bowlers who suck (relatively speaking) outside Asia. Fwiw, I highly doubt anyone is losing too much sleep if an atg xi is chosen and Ambrose misses out for Wasim or Imran. I wouldn't....
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I already told you, a 1-2 point drop in overall averages across the board that we can assume in our assessments.
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
subshakerz said:
Your post reminds me of the 'can of worms' comment at the beginning.

Basically, you are already comfortable with your rankings already, so regardless of whatever validity of their home performance, let's keep the status quo as opposed to reevaluating your assessment.

Because tough conditions arguments only apply to Steyn and McGrath, not SC cas it's not that important anyways.
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It's not reevaluating. I'm guessing some thread somewhere ranked Imran below Steyn and probably Ambrose and you're miffed....lol lol
 
TheJediBrah

TheJediBrah

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srbhkshk said:
??? That's because the pitches in India don't support seamers. If you could rock on in India or Pakistan bowling 125 kmph with some movement and average 20 we would have plenty of such players.
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??? Obviously, that's the point. What did you think I was saying?
 
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