Do SC Pacers Deserve More Credit For Home Performances?

[subshakerz]

But what if your home career achievements are due to pressure created by spinners at the other end ?

What great spinners were there for Kapil?

 

[Burgey]

What would Ambrose average if his home pitches were as flat as pitches in Pak?

Probably 21 or 22. Because he'd have grown up on those pitches and been great but in a different way.

 

[Sunil1z]

What great spinners were there for Kapil?

My example was for current Indian fast bowlers .
Your point is valid for Kapil but the biggest argument against him is lack of success in Pak/Eng . He was a swing bowler. Should have done well there .

 

[subshakerz]

Probably 21 or 22. Because he'd have grown up on those pitches and been great but in a different way.

He would have to learn how to swing the ball, to begin with..

 

[subshakerz]

My example was for current Indian fast bowlers .
Your point is valid for Kapil but the biggest argument against him is lack of success in Pak/Eng . He was a swing bowler. Should have done well there .

It's a major discredit to Shami to say he just feeds off Ashwin Jadeja pressure.

 

[Bolo.]

I mean, this is kinda of my point. You need something extraordinary to produce worldclass figures as a pacer in Pakistan over an entire career compared to playing on greentops.

Even in India with Kapil, to achieve his 26 average over an entire career to me would likely be a sub-25 effort in SENA.

Hard greentops? Ya, but they are very rare.

You need an exceptionally specific set of skills to succeed. Looking at how the Pak reverse bowlers did in relation to other bowlers home/away, you don't need to be exceptionally good at that skill though. I think the specificity of the skillset would be more useful in explaining having having fewer quality bowlers than lauding the good ones though. They may have produced some great Mcgrath types in the era if decks were different.

Conversely, the specificity of the skillset may explain why they have underperformed away in relation to other ATGs from the era. See Eng bowlers in general.

I do rate Kapil at home higher than if he'd been from a bunch of other countries. I'm never that keen to rate HTBs that highly though.

 

[Burgey]

He would have to learn how to swing the ball, to begin with..

Why do you think he wouldn't? He didn't swing it because as he developed he didn't have to. People don't develop their MOs in a vacuum.

 

[TheJediBrah]

The point is if a pacer does well in a certain set of conditions understood to be harder and loses out on easier conditions, that does raise suspicion on the matter whether he should be given extra points for doing well where it’s harder. Maybe his bowling style is suited to that

It's the same with spinners, eg. Lyon in Australia. Suited to Australia so does better than almost anyone there but take him to India and he'll be outperformed by the home spinners easily

Some of that might be down to who he's bowling to compared to them but not all of it

 

[subshakerz]

Hard greentops? Ya, but they are very rare.

You need an exceptionally specific set of skills to succeed. Looking at how the Pak reverse bowlers did in relation to other bowlers home/away, you don't need to be exceptionally good at that skill though. I think the specificity of the skillset would be more useful in explaining having having fewer quality bowlers than lauding the good ones though. They may have produced some great Mcgrath types in the era if decks were different.

Conversely, the specificity of the skillset may explain why they have underperformed away in relation to other ATGs from the era. See Eng bowlers in general.

I do rate Kapil at home higher than if he'd been from a bunch of other countries. I'm never that keen to rate HTBs that highly though.

Your entire framing makes it sound like Pak pacers were destined to succeed there and pitches for a non-factor. Devalues their home achievements IMO given the difficulty of physical conditions regardless of how they did away which is another debate.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

It's the same with spinners, eg. Lyon in Australia. Suited to Australia so does better than almost anyone there but take him to India and he'll be outperformed by the home spinners easily

Some of that might be down to who he's bowling to compared to them but not all of it

Subz are you listening??

 

[Burgey]

I think you're underestimating Imran's ability to peel an orange one-handed using a bottle top.

 

[subshakerz]

Why do you think he wouldn't? He didn't swing it because as he developed he didn't have to. People don't develop their MOs in a vacuum.

It's a big questionmark since swing is a fundamental element of SC success and I never saw Ambrose do it.

 

[subshakerz]

Subz are you listening??

Sure Lyon can't compete with Ashwin and Jadeja in India but he did pretty well in his own right.

But it's just a reductive argument to say bowlers adapt wherever they are, of course conditions make it easier or not.

 

[Slifer]

What would Ambrose average if his home pitches were as flat as pitches in Pak?

Over almost 20 tests at Bourda and The ARG Ambrose averages under 20 at both venues and strikes at 55 and 48 respectively. He did much worse on the more favorable wickets: Kensington and Sabina.

 

[subshakerz]

I think you're underestimating Imran's ability to peel an orange one-handed using a bottle top.

It's a winner mentality.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Over almost 20 tests at Bourda and The ARG Ambrose averages under 20 at both venues and strikes at 55 and 48 respectively. He did much worse on the more favorable wickets: Kensington and Sabina.

good to know

 

[OverratedSanity]

I think you're underestimating Imran's ability to peel an orange one-handed using a bottle top.

The fact that an upstanding man of integrity like Imran had to resort to cheating is yet more proof of how difficult Asian conditions are for pacers.

 

[Slifer]

What would Ambrose average if his home pitches were as flat as pitches in Pak?

Anyone's guess.

 

[Slifer]

You laugh now but I will keep harping on this.

Best of luck with that. That notion is absurd....

 

[Slifer]

It's a big questionmark since swing is a fundamental element of SC success and I never saw Ambrose do it.

Cough cough Walsh. He didn't swing it at all...