Jacques Kallis vs Imran Khan

[Coronis]

No taking 5 cheap wickets in two tests isn't comparable to averaging 50 in Australia in the 80s/90s over 8 tests including against Lillee, etc, also including scoring a ton.

Either you really believe that, in which case your level of analysis simply is way off, or you are simply fixed on your position and can't admit obvious facts. Either way, best we don't engage each other from now on. It's much more fruitful for discussion when we can have basic points of agreement.

Yeah but Kallis still won more matches in that 2 match series than Imran did in those 8 tests.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah but Kallis still won more matches in that 2 match series than Imran did in those 8 tests.

Not with the ball

 

[Coronis]

Not with the ball

Sure

 

[Cricket Bliss]

No taking 5 cheap wickets in two tests isn't comparable to averaging 50 in Australia in the 80s/90s over 8 tests including against Lillee, etc, also including scoring a ton.

Either you really believe that, in which case your level of analysis simply is way off, or you are simply fixed on your position and can't admit obvious facts. Either way, best we don't engage each other from now on. It's much more fruitful for discussion when we can have basic points of agreement.

Yes getting the wickets of Tendulkar and Laxman and Kaif (twice) becomes cheap because it isn’t Imran

 

[Cricket Bliss]

No taking 5 cheap wickets in two tests isn't comparable to averaging 50 in Australia in the 80s/90s over 8 tests including against Lillee, etc, also including scoring a ton.

Either you really believe that, in which case your level of analysis simply is way off, or you are simply fixed on your position and can't admit obvious facts. Either way, best we don't engage each other from now on. It's much more fruitful for discussion when we can have basic points of agreement.

Getting 20 wickets in 5 tests at an average of 19 with a five wicket haul and becoming the leading wicket taker that tournament against the likes of Lara, Chanderpaul, Gayle, Sarwan etc in their conditions is also worth mentioning. West Indies might never be near Australia of the 1980 as a team… but Lara ? or Chanderpaul? can’t deny their greatness.
moreover that five wicket haul came at a flat wicket in the first innings which included the wicket of Lara who scored 83 and Hooper who scored 74

 

[subshakerz]

Getting 20 wickets in 5 tests at an average of 19 with a five wicket haul and becoming the leading wicket taker that tournament against the likes of Lara, Chanderpaul, Gayle, Sarwan etc in their conditions is also worth mentioning. West Indies might never be near Australia of the 1980 as a team… but Lara ? or Chanderpaul? can’t deny their greatness.
moreover that five wicket haul came at a flat wicket in the first innings which included the wicket of Lara who scored 83 and Hooper who scored 74

I've moved on sir. Pls engage with someone else.

 

[Coronis]

I've moved on sir. Pls engage with someone else.

Always good to move on after a loss

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Kallis was the leading wicket taker in their of West Indies in 2001 with 20 wickets along with Pollock. kallis averaged 19.75 against the likes of lara, chanderpaul, sarwan and gayle

Agreed, but he didn’t have a good record even in his peak, outside SA and probably WI. Imran had a good record as a bat everywhere for a good majority of his career(1980-92) everywhere except WI

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Agreed, but he didn’t have a good record even in his peak, outside SA and probably WI. Imran had a good record as a bat everywhere for a good majority of his career(1980-92) everywhere except WI

Kallis averaged 29 in England which is definitely good (39 wickets in 15 Tests)
and Imran’s batting was not good in Sri Lanka.. considering they were minnows then makes it even worse
and Imran averages mid 30s in Australia, England etc which is nothing above mediocre

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Kallis averaged 29 in England which is definitely good (39 wickets in 15 Tests)
and Imran’s batting was not good in Sri Lanka.. considering they were minnows then makes it even worse
and Imran averages mid 30s in Australia, England etc which is nothing above mediocre

I’m specifically talking about the peaks. For Kallis bowling peak till 2003, and for Imran batting peak from 1980 onwards. In that Imran averages 50+ in both Aus and Eng. And generally, minnows are granted less importance while focusing on player to player comparisons

 

[Cricket Bliss]

I’m specifically talking about the peaks. For Kallis bowling peak till 2003, and for Imran batting peak from 1980 onwards. In that Imran averages 50+ in both Aus and Eng. And generally, minnows are granted less importance while focusing on player to player comparisons

Minnows are given less importance… agreed … but failing against minnows!! that definitely has significance… that too an average of 12!!moreover his peak began in 1982…

Kallis averages 26.72 at his peak in England (25 wickets out of 8 tests) that is definitely impressive…

though only played 3 tests combined in India and Pakisthan but given the sub continent conditions I think it is worth mentioning he averages 16.42

then in the late 10s in West Indies and at 27 in his home conditions

 

[smash84]

It was not Kallis fault that the tournament was like that. He could only play what he is provided and did that gracefully….

Yeah but it was a 3 match tournament, literally. I might as well pull out a random Sharjah cup in comparison.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Y

Yeah but it was a 3 match tournament, literally. I might as well pull out a random Sharjah cup in comparison.

You can… still did anyone perfom like that

 

[kyear2]

I haven't and wouldn't read the last 3 pages, but my only counter to Subs is that while Kallis is pushed down for lack of workload, I believe that SA handled him almost perfectly, especially as he got older. Why over work your best batsman with the ball, especially when his value is just as high if not higher at 2nd. Let him fill in a few over, assist with the rotation and hopefully break a partnership or two. I wish that's how Sobers would have handled himself while batting at 4 and standing at 2nd, way more value to the team.

It should be about what's best for the team and not would look look on statguru 20 years later.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Yes let's ignore average when convenient.

By that logic
Ganteaume better batsman than Bradman.
Klusner better ODI Batsman than Lara.

 

[smash84]

Y

You can… still did anyone perfom like that

Of course they did. Imran did even better in the 6 nation Nehru Cup which had a round robin format with the top teams in the world (except SL who hadn't come into their own yet). He was the player of the series and beat a great WI team in the final where he took pivotal wickets and was (almost) the highest scorer (from Pakistan side) as well as getting MoM in the final too. And Pakistan wouldn't have qualified for the final if it hadn't been for his batting against SL and his bowling against Australia. Match winner all through the tournament.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Of course they did. Imran did even better in the 6 nation Nehru Cup which had a round robin format with the top teams in the world (except SL who hadn't come into their own yet). He was the player of the series and beat a great WI team in the final where he took pivotal wickets and was (almost) the highest scorer as well getting MoM in the final too. And Pakistan wouldn't have qualified for the final if it hadn't been for his batting against SL and his bowling against Australia. Match winner all through the tournament.

That was no were near what Kallis did at the 98 Knockout Trophy.
Imran was the Player of the Tournament and Player of the Match in the Final…
and was never near leading scorer and by no chance leading wicket taker.
He was the fifth leading run scorer and not in the top 10 when it came to bowling…

But Kallis
Player of the Tournament, Player of the Finals and the Semi Finals
Leading wicket taker and the second leading run scorer…
His performance is way beyond than that of Imran in 89 Nehru which is clearer than daylight!!

That performance by Kallis definitely is the best performance ever by a cricketer in such tournaments ( not including World Cups)

His 113* in the Semi Finals was extremely impressive as the second highest was Cullinan with 30

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Minnows are given less importance… agreed … but failing against minnows!! that definitely has significance… that too an average of 12!!moreover his peak began in 1982…

Kallis averages 26.72 at his peak in England (25 wickets out of 8 tests) that is definitely impressive…

though only played 3 tests combined in India and Pakisthan but given the sub continent conditions I think it is worth mentioning he averages 16.42

then in the late 10s in West Indies and at 27 in his home conditions

I agree with the Eng point but I believe Imran doing well at home, Ind, Aus and Eng for a good majority of his career(63 out of 88 tests) is better. His only weak point was WI and SL

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Of course they did. Imran did even better in the 6 nation Nehru Cup which had a round robin format with the top teams in the world (except SL who hadn't come into their own yet). He was the player of the series and beat a great WI team in the final where he took pivotal wickets and was (almost) the highest scorer (from Pakistan side) as well as getting MoM in the final too. And Pakistan wouldn't have qualified for the final if it hadn't been for his batting against SL and his bowling against Australia. Match winner all through the tournament.

Even in Quater Finals though not man of the match Kallis picked 3 wickets and that is what you call match winner throughout the tournament >> Imran at the 89 Nehru Cup… which is bright and clear.

 

[Bolo.]

I haven't and wouldn't read the last 3 pages, but my only counter to Subs is that while Kallis is pushed down for lack of workload, I believe that SA handled him almost perfectly, especially as he got older. Why over work your best batsman with the ball, especially when his value is just as high if not higher at 2nd. Let him fill in a few over, assist with the rotation and hopefully break a partnership or two. I wish that's how Sobers would have handled himself while batting at 4 and standing at 2nd, way more value to the team.

It should be about what's best for the team and not would look look on statguru 20 years later.

3rd most catches.
3rd most balls faced.
14th in balls bowled for quicks (and only a few guys with more were actually quick)

Hardly ever rested or injured. And played a ton of ODIs at the same time.

Everyone who has taken on a full workload as a quick in 2 disciplines has broken down pretty fast. Sobers, Imran and Botham are the most notable examples. And if he breaks down, you are losing in all 3 departments (and not just losing a bit).