Joe Root vs Mark Waugh

[kyear2]

By all accounts, surely you aren't meaning to say that Pollock, Richards, Kallis and Smith; despite how good they're; are better than Grace, Hobbs, Hammond and Hutton?

In terms of facing top quality bowlers of express pace? Definitely, without the slightest doubt.

Most who saw him called Richards the best opener ever.

Pollock is seen as at most the 3rd best leftie of all time and one who Bradman and others had on par talent wise with Sobers.

I have Kallis and Hammond not that far apart ranking wise and both are between 10 and 15.

 

[ataraxia]

No 4 should be able to as well.

But with

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington.

Who's doing that besides Hobbs?

Well then just play Root, hey?

 

[capt_Luffy]

In terms of facing top quality bowlers of express pace? Definitely, without the slightest doubt.

Most who saw him called Richards the best opener ever.

Pollock is seen as at most the 3rd best leftie of all time and one who Bradman and others had on par talent wise with Sobers.

I have Kallis and Hammond not that far apart ranking wise and both are between 10 and 15.

Richards, with great respect, I am not sure has proven himself enough to be sure he would not be another Graeme Hicke.

Pollock suffered with his own issues of inconsistency and had problems with pace.

Kallis was a very good batsman, I believe I am one of his bigger supporters here; but he's a little behind the Englishmen, not to mention had historically trouble in England.

Smith, with all due respect, is 2 tiers below the rest.

 

[kyear2]

Well then just play Root, hey?

I would, and Sir Leonard would be opening.

 

[ataraxia]

I would, and Sir Leonard would be opening.

But of course, play a much inferior bat instead of Sutcliffe.

 

[kyear2]

Richards, with great respect, I am not sure has proven himself enough to be sure he would not be another Graeme Hicke.

Pollock suffered with his own issues of inconsistency and had problems with pace.

Kallis was a very good batsman, I believe I am one of his bigger supporters here; but he's a little behind the Englishmen, not to mention had historically trouble in England.

Smith, with all due respect, is 2 tiers below the rest.

Peak Richards or peak Grace, who are you betting on to handle a peak pace attack. Richards was one of 3 batsmen not to fall on their face in WSC. Outperformed Greenidge in county cricket playing for the same team. I'm confident in Richards.

I believe when @peterhrt mentioned the inconsistency bit, it was questioned and revised, but I could be wrong. But still taking him at 4 ahead of Hammond who was at best uncomfortable vs short pitched bowling and stated he wasn't a fan of it.

Hutton v Kallis is closer, but even Kallis would be more assertive

Hobbs is leaves better than Smith, but again, in a modern scenario, is he "better"

 

[kyear2]

But of course, play a much inferior bat instead of Sutcliffe.

When Sutcliffe and Hobbs played you couldn't be out LBW if the ball pitched outside off, the level of competition and variety of opposition was nothing compared to what it was even post war.

And finally with Hutton, Barrington, and Hammond in the team, they have the stoic defender role locked down.

Root is a specialist no 4 and would add some much needed assertiveness to the lineup

 

[capt_Luffy]

Peak Richards or peak Grace, who are you betting on to handle a peak pace attack. Richards was one of 3 batsmen not to fall on their face in WSC. Outperformed Greenidge in county cricket playing for the same team. I'm confident in Richards.

I believe when @peterhrt mentioned the inconsistency bit, it was questioned and revised, but I could be wrong. But still taking him at 4 ahead of Hammond who was at best uncomfortable vs short pitched bowling and stated he wasn't a fan of it.

Hutton v Kallis is closer, but even Kallis would be more assertive

Hobbs is leaves better than Smith, but again, in a modern scenario, is he "better"

That's fine. But Richards only played 5 matches in WSC and WG dominated bowlers on pitches modern day bats can't even imagine and his closest competitors were averaging in their mid 20s.... Overall, for all we know, Graeme Hicke was compared with Sachin and Lara until he played Test matches.

Hammond faced Constantine and Martindale in a five match series, not in his prime, they applied 'leg theory' the precursor of bodyline and he scored at a decent enough average of 35 against the best pace attack he ever played. All he said was they troubled him and saying otherwise would had been equivalent of Bradman saying Bodyline series was just like any other Ashes he played. My point, if we give a pass to Bradman for bodyline, we shouldn't be so harsh on him.

I thought you were a big fan of Hutton? Anyways, Hutton was, by all accounts, a better bat than Kallis (and I love Kallis).

 

[Socerer 01]

op please change thread title now that good discussion is finally happening in this thread

 

[Coronis]

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Root
Barrington
Knott+
Laker
Trueman
Barnes
Anderson

Is probably what I’d go with. The other option (for me at least) is to have Botham instead of Anderson. Anderson comes out slightly ahead on career but comparing their peaks Botham was more destructive and just as talented.

But in that team, they weren't

One opener was Sutcliffe, Hammond was after him then Barrington.

Plus if it's Tests alone, does Grace really merit inclusion?

If Richards does, Grace does. Played tests for almost 20 years (not even in his prime), in a much harder era and against much better bowlers than Richards. Plus his peer rating far outstrips Richards’

 

[capt_Luffy]

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Root
Barrington
Knott+
Laker
Trueman
Barnes
Anderson

Is probably what I’d go with. The other option (for me at least) is to have Botham instead of Anderson. Anderson comes out slightly ahead on career but comparing their peaks Botham was more destructive and just as talented.



If Richards does, Grace does. Played tests for almost 20 years (not even in his prime), in a much harder era and against much better bowlers than Richards. Plus his peer rating far outstrips Richards’

I strongly agree with the rest, but this....

 

[Coronis]

I strongly agree with the rest, but this....

Notable bowlers Richards faced in tests: young Ashley Mallett, old Graham Mckenzie, Alan Connolly, Jack Gleeson

Notable bowlers Grace faced in tests: Charlie Turner, Fred Spofforth, Hugh Trumble, JJ Ferris, George Giffen

 

[capt_Luffy]

Notable bowlers Richards faced in tests: young Ashley Mallett, old Graham Mckenzie, Alan Connolly, Jack Gleeson

Notable bowlers Grace faced in tests: Charlie Turner, Fred Spofforth, Hugh Trumble, JJ Ferris, George Giffen

Yeah, but Richards atleast faced Lillee, Roberts and co in the WSC....

 

[Coronis]

Yeah, but Richards atleast faced Lillee, Roberts and co in the WSC....

I thought this was about tests, otherwise why did you even bring up the Richards point?

 

[capt_Luffy]

I thought this was about tests, otherwise why did you even bring up the Richards point?

I actually consider the WSC Test level atleast..... Or else there's really nothing going on for Barry

 

[Coronis]

I actually consider the WSC Test level atleast..... Or else there's really nothing going on for Barry

Well for much of WG’s era county was considered even more important than tests so if we’re counting WSC bowlers you also have to count the County Bowlers Grace faced

 

[capt_Luffy]

Well for much of WG’s era county was considered even more important than tests so if we’re counting WSC bowlers you also have to count the County Bowlers Grace faced

Tom Richardson, George Lohman, Johnny Briggs, Bobby Peel, Colin Blythe, Wilfred Rhodes, Bill Lockwood, Billy Barnes, etc., but most played against him when he passed his prime though. Has WG faced Sydney Barnes ever?

 

[Coronis]

Tom Richardson, George Lohman, Johnny Briggs, Bobby Peel, Colin Blythe, Wilfred Rhodes, Bill Lockwood, Billy Barnes, etc., but most played against him when he passed his prime though. Has WG faced Sydney Barnes ever?

Probably, he played full seasons up until like 1904. Barnes was playing FC cricket from 1894.

 

[peterhrt]

Has WG faced Sydney Barnes ever?

They met three times in FC cricket.

1894. Gloucestershire v Warwickshire. Rained off before they could face each other.

1902. MCC v Lancashire. In the first innings Grace scored 24. Barnes twisted a knee during his third over and left the field for good. Grace allowed Lancs a full substitute with John Broughton replacing Barnes and batting. In the second innings Grace made 61*.

1902. Gentlemen v Players. Grace scored 82 and 7. Barnes did not dismiss him, but during his first knock Grace informed Barnes that he had edged one of his deliveries to the keeper and not walked after being given not out.

 

[BazBall21]

South Africa have a better all time XI than England