The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Coronis]

Pre-1970 vs Post 1970 for countries

(in cases for players who overlap, I’ll pick whichever side of 1970 they played the most for - totally not doing this just to give England Boycott, Knott and Underwood for some much needed help)

Australia

Pre
Lawry
Simpson
Bradman*
Harvey
McCabe
Hassett
Miller
Oldfield+
Lindwall
Davidson
O’Reilly

Post
Hayden
Langer
Ponting
Smith
Chappell
Border*
Gilchrist+
Warne
Cummins
Lillee
McGrath

I actually really struggled on the pre 70’s for Australia. Another time I might pick very different. Trumper, Hill, Morris, Ponsford, Barnes and Benaud (kinda but not really) all considered. Bowling actually matches up really well - the batting is in favour of the modern side but ofc we have the Bradman factor… modern side has the edge I believe but its a good competition.

England

Pre
Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
May
Ames+
Bedser
Laker
Trueman
Barnes

Post
Boycott
Cook
Gower
Root
Pietersen
Botham
Stokes
Knott+
Willis
Underwood
Anderson

Not much to say here, the older team has them dominated across the board, apart from a better keeper. Better allrounders too but the first team doesn’t have/need allrounders.

West Indies

Pre
Hunte
Rae
Headley
Weekes
Worrell*
Sobers
Walcott+
Gibbs
Hall
Gilchrist
Griffith

Post
Greenidge
Haynes
Richards
Lara
Lloyd*
Chanderpaul
Dujon+
Marshall
Garner
Holding
Ambrose

This one would be close too. The batting is evenly matched but…. the thing is the lack of a good spinner on the post 70’s team. I mean aside from Harper who played in the 80’s/90’s (and was only brought in for spinners tracks likely?) There have literally been zero good spinners. The pre 70’s pace attack is pretty decent (obviously blasted out of the water by post) but Gibbs and Sobers probably take a bunch of matches for them.

South Africa

Pre
Mitchell*
Barlow
Nourse
Pollock
Taylor
Faulkner
Goddard
Lindsay+
Tayfield
Pollock
Adcock

Post
Smith*
Kirsten
Amla
Kallis
de Villiers
du Plessis
de Kock+
Pollock
Rabada
Donald
Steyn

Another one with a pace/spin bias. I didn’t bother again with a spinner because they’ll never compete with the pre 70’s team that way - the batting is sort of comparable but pre-70’s really lacked that 3rd good pacer they need, so they are left with Goddard and Barlow. Pre 70’s would throw up some wins on turners but advantage to modern team.

Not doing the other teams cos they’d be much worse than England.

 

[bagapath]

Pre 70s English team can lose Sutcliffe, move Hutton to his rightful position as opener, and bring in either Compton at 3 or Rhodes at 7/8
Good teams otherwise

India Pre 1970 wont have a test standard XI I think

 

[Coronis]

Pre 70s English team can lose Sutcliffe, move Hutton to his rightful position as opener, and bring in either Compton at 3 or Rhodes at 7/8
Good teams otherwise

India Pre 1970 wont have test standard XI I think

Nah Compton’s an overrated hack (that’s why May’s there), Rhodes isn’t really needed with the bowling attack and Hammond. I have Hutton at 3 with Hobbs/Sutcliffe opening in my ATG XI so yeah keeping that.

 

[peterhrt]

India Pre 1970 wont have test standard XI I think

Journalist Dicky Rutnagur picked this team in 1966: Merchant, Mushtaq Ali, Vijay Manjrekar, Hazare, CK Nayudu*, Lala Amarnath, Mankad, Amar Singh, Tamhane+, Nissar, Gupte.

Looks a pretty good side.

 

[bagapath]

India
Pre 1970

Merchant
Engineer +
Umrigar
Hazare
Manjrekar
Pataudi *
Mankad
Nissar
Amar Singh
Prasanna
Gupte

Post 1970

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Kohli
Dhoni +*
Kapil
Jadeja
Ashwin
Bumrah
Shami

 

[capt_Luffy]

Pre-1970 vs Post 1970 for countries

(in cases for players who overlap, I’ll pick whichever side of 1970 they played the most for - totally not doing this just to give England Boycott, Knott and Underwood for some much needed help)

Australia

Pre
Lawry
Simpson
Bradman*
Harvey
McCabe
Hassett
Miller
Oldfield+
Lindwall
Davidson
O’Reilly

Post
Hayden
Langer
Ponting
Smith
Chappell
Border*
Gilchrist+
Warne
Cummins
Lillee
McGrath

I actually really struggled on the pre 70’s for Australia. Another time I might pick very different. Trumper, Hill, Morris, Ponsford, Barnes and Benaud (kinda but not really) all considered. Bowling actually matches up really well - the batting is in favour of the modern side but ofc we have the Bradman factor… modern side has the edge I believe but its a good competition.

England

Pre
Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
May
Ames+
Bedser
Laker
Trueman
Barnes

Post
Boycott
Cook
Gower
Root
Pietersen
Botham
Stokes
Knott+
Willis
Underwood
Anderson

Not much to say here, the older team has them dominated across the board, apart from a better keeper. Better allrounders too but the first team doesn’t have/need allrounders.

West Indies

Pre
Hunte
Rae
Headley
Weekes
Worrell*
Sobers
Walcott+
Gibbs
Hall
Gilchrist
Griffith

Post
Greenidge
Haynes
Richards
Lara
Lloyd*
Chanderpaul
Dujon+
Marshall
Garner
Holding
Ambrose

This one would be close too. The batting is evenly matched but…. the thing is the lack of a good spinner on the post 70’s team. I mean aside from Harper who played in the 80’s/90’s (and was only brought in for spinners tracks likely?) There have literally been zero good spinners. The pre 70’s pace attack is pretty decent (obviously blasted out of the water by post) but Gibbs and Sobers probably take a bunch of matches for them.

South Africa

Pre
Mitchell*
Barlow
Nourse
Pollock
Taylor
Faulkner
Goddard
Lindsay+
Tayfield
Pollock
Adcock

Post
Smith*
Kirsten
Amla
Kallis
de Villiers
du Plessis
de Kock+
Pollock
Rabada
Donald
Steyn

Another one with a pace/spin bias. I didn’t bother again with a spinner because they’ll never compete with the pre 70’s team that way - the batting is sort of comparable but pre-70’s really lacked that 3rd good pacer they need, so they are left with Goddard and Barlow. Pre 70’s would throw up some wins on turners but advantage to modern team.

Not doing the other teams cos they’d be much worse than England.

Hassett above Trumper is an interesting choice.....

 

[capt_Luffy]

Pakistan pre 1970s:
Hanif Mohammad
Majid Khan
Zaheer Abbas
Asif Iqbal
Saeed Ahmed
Mushtaq Mohammad
Intikhab Alam
Waseem Bari
Fazal Mahmood
Sarfaraz Nawaz
Khan Mohammad

Post 1970s:
Saeed Anwar
Azhar Ali
Younis Khan
Javed Miandad
Inzamam Ul Haq
Imran Khan
Moin Khan
Wasim Akram
Shoaib Akhtar
Saqlain Mushtaq
Waqar Younis

Ofcourse the post team is miles ahead and is pretty much the ATG Pakistan team barring Hanif, but I was kinda surprised how strong the pre team also turned out to be.

New Zealand pre 1970s:
Stewie Dempster
Glenn Turner
Bert Sutcliffe
Martin Donnelly
Bevan Congdon
John Richard Reid
Bruce Taylor
Ken Wadsworth
Tom Burtt
Tony MacGibbon
Jack Cowie

Post 1970s:
John Wright
Devon Conway
Kane Williamson
Martin Crowe
Ross Taylor
Chris Cairns
B J Watling
Richard Hadlee
Daniel Vettori
Trent Boult
Shane Bond

Again, the post team is much better, especially due to the presence of Hadlee, Williamson and Crowe; but the pre team is also more decent than I expected with a very dependable batting line-up and a huge tail; coupled with a capable bowling line-up.

 

[bagapath]

Zaheer Abbas made his test debut in October 1969. Played 77 of his 78 tests after 1970.

Asif Iqbal played 41 of his 58 tests after 1970.

Glenn Turner made his debut in Feb 1969. 32 of his 41 tests came after 1970.

 

[Qlder]

Pre-1970 vs Post 1970 for countries

(in cases for players who overlap, I’ll pick whichever side of 1970 they played the most for - totally not doing this just to give England Boycott, Knott and Underwood for some much needed help)

Australia

Pre
Lawry
Simpson
Bradman*
Harvey
McCabe
Hassett
Miller
Oldfield+
Lindwall
Davidson
O’Reilly

Post
Hayden
Langer
Ponting
Smith
Chappell
Border*
Gilchrist+
Warne
Cummins
Lillee
McGrath

I actually really struggled on the pre 70’s for Australia. Another time I might pick very different. Trumper, Hill, Morris, Ponsford, Barnes and Benaud (kinda but not really) all considered. Bowling actually matches up really well - the batting is in favour of the modern side but ofc we have the Bradman factor… modern side has the edge I believe but its a good competition.

Pity a spot can't be found for Ian Chappell. He played 54 Tests batting #3 averaging 50.94, so squeezed out by the two best #3 for Aus in Bradman and Ponting.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Zaheer Abbas made his test debut in October 1969. Played 77 of his 78 tests after 1970.

Asif Iqbal played 41 of his 58 tests after 1970.

Glenn Turner made his debut in Feb 1969. 32 of his 41 tests came after 1970.

I thought pre and post was based on debut years....

 

[Starfighter]

Pakistan pre 1970s:
Hanif Mohammad
Majid Khan
Zaheer Abbas
Asif Iqbal
Saeed Ahmed
Mushtaq Mohammad
Intikhab Alam
Waseem Bari
Fazal Mahmood
Sarfaraz Khan
Khan Mohammad

Who's Sarfaraz Khan in this instance?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Who's Sarfaraz Khan in this instance?

*Sarfaraz Nawaz. It was my bad

 

[Prince EWS]

*Sarfaraz Nawaz. It was my bad

Enjoy your bad.

 

[bagapath]

My pre 1970 England

Sir John Berry Hobbs
Dr. WG Grace *
Walter Hammond
Kumarsingh Ranjitsinhji
Hon. Stanley Jackson
Les Ames +
Wilfred Rhodes
Jim Laker
John Snow
Fred Trueman
Sid Barnes

My post 1970 England

Graham Gooch
Sir Geoffrey Boycott
David Gower
Joe Root
Kevin Pietersen
Ben Stokes *
Lord Ian Botham
Alan Knott +
Bob Willis
Derek Underwood
Jimmy Anderson

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Australia Pre-1970

Trumper
Morris
Bradman*
Macartney
Hill
McCabe
Miller
Lindwall
Tallon+
Grimmett
O'Reilly

Davidson worthy of a mention. But, O’Reilly and Grimmett are clearly superior bowler and I think Lindwall is ahead as well.

Post- 1970

Hayden
Langer
Ponting
Smith
Chappell
Border*
Gilchrist+
Warne
Cummins
Lillee
McGrath

 

[Coronis]

Australia Pre-1970

Trumper
Morris
Bradman*
Macartney
Hill
McCabe
Miller
Lindwall
Tallon+
Grimmett
O'Reilly

Davidson worthy of a mention. But, O’Reilly and Grimmett are clearly superior bowler and I think Lindwall is ahead as well.

Post- 1970

Hayden
Langer
Ponting
Smith
Chappell
Border*
Gilchrist+
Warne
Cummins
Lillee
McGrath

I don’t disagree with any of the batting choices in the pre-70’s team, they’re all valid imo options imo. But seriously, I’m one of the biggest Grimmett fans, but no way is he a better bowler than Alan Davidson. Plus it clearly makes the pace attack inferior to the other team, that disadvantage is going to show a lot more than the advantage of two frontline spinners.

 

[Coronis]

Hassett above Trumper is an interesting choice.....

Was definitely one of my considerations - I think beyond Bradman, Simpson and Harvey for me none of the batting selections were automatic, there were a lot of viable options.

I thought pre and post was based on debut years....

Well since I started this discussion I guess, for me I based it on where they played the majority of their matches partly because when you think of that certain player and their era that’s the most significant period (and usually their best period) that you’d remember them for. For the Zaheer example, would anyone ever remember him as a pre-70’s player?

 

[trundler]

I'd rather have Oldfield or Blackham over Tallon too. Moderate upgrade in batting and Oldfield at least was probably a better keeper too.

 

[Coronis]

I'd rather have Oldfield or Blackham over Tallon too. Moderate upgrade in batting and Oldfield at least was probably a better keeper too.

I think Oldfield’s stumping record is probably the most underrated record in test cricket.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

I don’t disagree with any of the batting choices in the pre-70’s team, they’re all valid imo options imo. But seriously, I’m one of the biggest Grimmett fans, but no way is he a better bowler than Alan Davidson. Plus it clearly makes the pace attack inferior to the other team, that disadvantage is going to show a lot more than the advantage of two frontline spinners.

Grimmett >> Davidson as a bowler. O’Reilly and Grimmett should be perfect pair considering they are like 2 different bowlers. No wonder they jelled perfectly regardless of the opposition. Any opposition, especially with pre-70 bats are gonna feel like hell to score a run at all.

Don’t let O’Reilly’s record against England fool you when rating Grimmett. O’Reilly was a freak and was unarguably regarded as the best Australian bowler at least till 1970 and alongside Barnes The Best bowler who ever lived. Grimmett probably did as good as any spinner in history could facing Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hammond etc.