Is AB de Villiers an ATG test batsman?

[CricketFan90s]

I meant that the conditions weren't exactly apples to apples. I don't mind comparing two different types of players with the same criteria but the criteria has to be the same. I'm not sure you can say the conditions in Australia suited JT as much as the conditions in SA suited Philander.

Thompson's bowling was best suited for Australian Pitches. The best we could see of Thompson was in Australia. you have to be the best in one or the other type of pitches offered in your time.

 

[CricketFan90s]

 

[Prince EWS]

(Still think he's better than Lillee, so put that in your pipes and smoke it Church of Orthodox Concensus CW Cricket Opinions!)

Yeah but is he better than Hoggard?

 

[shortpitched713]

Yeah but is better than Hoggard?

You should make a thread.

 

[shortpitched713]

Greg Chappell
Sunil Gavaskar
Viv Richards
Javed Miandad
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Jacques Kallis
Kumar Sangakkara

Here's who I've got as unquestioned top 8 ATGs in my mind, from this era. Above AdV I've still got to put a bunch of Australians, Dravid, and some active players as well, just off the top of my mind.

How are you an "ATG", if there are multiple tiers ahead of you? What does ATG even mean then anymore?

Top 5-10 bats during his time, sure. But let's not water down what we mean by ATG.

**** it, you guys are right, and have actually convinced me. I'd put in Garner over Philander, given the arguments mentioned. Thought of some other bowlers as well like Imran and Pollock are probably better than him too (Still think he's better than Lillee, so put that in your pipes and smoke it Church of Orthodox Concensus CW Cricket Opinions!) My revised list of ATG seamers from modern (70-) era:

Richard Hadlee
Joel Garner
Malcolm Marshall
Curtly Ambrose
Allan Donald
Glenn Mcgrath
Dale Steyn

The whole point of this freaking tangent is that ATG is an exclusive as **** category, and a club in which AdV doesn't belong.

For completeness sake, going to list remaining ATGs of modern ( 70- ) era for you:

Openers:

Matthew Hayden
Virender Sehwag
Graeme Smith

Spinners:

Shane Warne
Muttiah Muralitharan

Gilly:
Adam Gilchrist

All-Rounders:

Imran Khan
Ian Botham
Shaun Pollock


So that's it, these 24 players are the ATGs of the modern ( 70- ) era, who have already retired.

Greg Chappell
Sunil Gavaskar
Viv Richards
Javed Miandad
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Jacques Kallis
Kumar Sangakkara
Richard Hadlee
Joel Garner
Malcolm Marshall
Curtly Ambrose
Allan Donald
Glenn Mcgrath
Dale Steyn
Matthew Hayden
Virender Sehwag
Graeme Smith
Shane Warne
Muttiah Muralitharan
Adam Gilchrist
Imran Khan
Ian Botham
Shaun Pollock

So stop looking for any more in the past! You won't find them. They don't exist. Don't try!

Of currently playing players Steve Smith will be one, but for the rest of the candidates, it's still in their hands to make their case. That goes for Root, or Ashwin and Jadeja, along with others as well.


Now that I've solved that, about 70% + of conversation threads on historical cricket have now been resolved, a great optimization for the Cricket Chat forum. Now we can all go back and spend more time on what's really important, maximizing the value of whichever firm we are gainfully employed with.

 

[Prince EWS]

For completeness sake, going to list remaining ATGs of modern ( 70- ) era for you:

Openers:

Matthew Hayden
Virender Sehwag
Graeme Smith

Spinners:

Shane Warne
Muttiah Muralitharan

Gilly:
Adam Gilchrist

All-Rounders:

Imran Khan
Ian Botham
Shaun Pollock


So that's it, these 24 players are the ATGs of the modern ( 70- ) era, who have already retired.

Greg Chappell
Sunil Gavaskar
Viv Richards
Javed Miandad
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Jacques Kallis
Kumar Sangakkara
Richard Hadlee
Joel Garner
Malcolm Marshall
Curtly Ambrose
Allan Donald
Glenn Mcgrath
Dale Steyn
Matthew Hayden
Virender Sehwag
Graeme Smith
Shane Warne
Muttiah Muralitharan
Adam Gilchrist
Imran Khan
Ian Botham
Shaun Pollock

So stop looking for any more in the past! You won't find them. They don't exist. Don't try!

Of currently playing players Steve Smith will be one, but for the rest of the candidates, it's still in their hands to make their case. That goes for Root, or Ashwin and Jadeja, along with others as well.


Now that I've solved that, about 70% + of conversation threads on historical cricket have now been resolved, a great optimization for the Cricket Chat forum. Now we can all go back and spend more time on what's really important, maximizing the value of whichever firm we are gainfully employed with.

I get the opener tax thing but Sehwag and Hayden apparently being better than Dravid and Ponting just seems wrong to me.

 

[CricketFan90s]

For completeness sake, going to list remaining ATGs of modern ( 70- ) era for you:

Openers:

Matthew Hayden
Virender Sehwag
Graeme Smith

Spinners:

Shane Warne
Muttiah Muralitharan

Gilly:
Adam Gilchrist

All-Rounders:

Imran Khan
Ian Botham
Shaun Pollock


So that's it, these 24 players are the ATGs of the modern ( 70- ) era, who have already retired.

Greg Chappell
Sunil Gavaskar
Viv Richards
Javed Miandad
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Jacques Kallis
Kumar Sangakkara
Richard Hadlee
Joel Garner
Malcolm Marshall
Curtly Ambrose
Allan Donald
Glenn Mcgrath
Dale Steyn
Matthew Hayden
Virender Sehwag
Graeme Smith
Shane Warne
Muttiah Muralitharan
Adam Gilchrist
Imran Khan
Ian Botham
Shaun Pollock

So stop looking for any more in the past! You won't find them. They don't exist. Don't try!

Of currently playing players Steve Smith will be one, but for the rest of the candidates, it's still in their hands to make their case. That goes for Root, or Ashwin and Jadeja, along with others as well.


Now that I've solved that, about 70% + of conversation threads on historical cricket have now been resolved, a great optimization for the Cricket Chat forum. Now we can all go back and spend more time on what's really important, maximizing the value of whichever firm we are gainfully employed with.

Hehehe ? you think differently man ?????

 

[Burgey]

How can you rate Miandad a better player than Border when the latter averaged 55 away from home while the former feasted on what are widely regarded as the dodgiest home umpires in cricket history. WTAF is wrong with people?

 

[CricketFan90s]

How can you rate Miandad a better player than Border when the latter averaged 55 away from home while the former feasted on what are widely regarded as the dodgiest home umpires in cricket history. WTAF is wrong with people?

I am waiting for his explanation. The conviction he has is praiseworthy ???.

 

[shortpitched713]

How can you rate Miandad a better player than Border when the latter averaged 55 away from home while the former feasted on what are widely regarded as the dodgiest home umpires in cricket history. WTAF is wrong with people?

Citation needed.

 

[shortpitched713]

In all honesty, I don't rate away averages quite as highly as most people here do. Ultimately, Miandad scored his runs at a meaningfully better clip than his contemporary Border. I'm not really buying the case otherwise, as for me it has to be very strong to make up for differences in average, which Miandad has over Border.

 

[Burgey]

Not away from home he doesn't. Which is obviously a measure of how versatile and adaptive a player is.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Allan Border

In Pakistan

1980-1988

9

16

4

743

153

61.91

3

3

0

79

7

In Australia

1978-1994

86

145

20

5743

205

45.94

13

35

7

544

10

In West Indies

1984-1991

10

19

4

796

100*

53.06

1

5

1

76

1

In England

1980-1993

25

43

11

2082

200*

65.06

5

12

1

245

5

Javed Miandad

In Pakistan

1976-1993

60

86

13

4481

280*

61.38

14

17

0

In Australia

1976-1990

16

28

1

1028

131

38.07

2

7

1

In West Indies

1977-1993

7

12

0

405

114

33.75

2

0

0

In England

1978-1992

16

24

3

979

260

46.61

2

5

3

Border was clearly better Test Batsmen. However, if you consider ODI's too then Javed Miandad will be the Best.

Miandad can still be considered a Greater Batsmen compared to Border as he along with Zaheer Abbas were the foremost Cricketers of Asia to have a Good record in both Tests and ODI's.

 

[shortpitched713]

Border was a rather dour ****, who only 5 of his 27 centuries were in matches his side won, whereas 10 of Miandad's 23 centuries were in matches won. Sorry, Border not much of an inspiring bat for mine, compared to Miandad. Miandad a much more likeable fellow as well. Easy, for mine.

And yes, I get Borders' sides were far from great. Doesn't change the nails on chalkboard nature of much of his batting.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Border was a rather dour ****, who only 5 of his 27 centuries were in matches his side won. Sorry, not much of an inspiring bat for mine, compared to Miandad. Miandad a much more likeable fellow as well. Easy, for mine.

Miandad wins over Border in being more Versatile in both formats of the game. But purely as a Test Batsmen will go for Border as he was also a better captain.

 

[shortpitched713]

Strange reasoning there, as Miandad didn't get much of a chance to captain a side led by Imran, and did a commendable job, with a much better results record than Border, when he did get the chance.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Strange reasoning there, as Miandad didn't get much of a chance to captain a side led by Imran, and did a commendable job, with a much better results record than Border, when he did get the chance.

I will agree that putting aside statistics, to become Javed Miandad in Pakistan ?? is tougher than becoming Allan Border in Australia ??.

 

[Burgey]

Strange reasoning there, as Miandad didn't get much of a chance to captain a side led by Imran, and did a commendable job, with a much better results record than Border, when he did get the chance.

Border had a **** side for the first four years of his captaincy. Basically if he got out the side was ****ed. Have a look at some of the line ups he had around him. It's not his fault a lot of them were rubbish. Fmd if Aus avoided the follow-on in the mid 80s the publicans would buy a round for the front bar. It's genuinely difficult to fathom how utterly woeful those sides were unless you saw them play. They were a one man band.

 

[subshakerz]

Border was far superior

 

[CricketFan90s]

Border had a **** side for the first four years of his captaincy. Basically if he got out the side was ****ed. Have a look at some of the line ups he had around him. It's not his fault a lot of them were rubbish. Fmd if Aus avoided the follow-on in the mid 80s the publicans would buy a round for the front bar. It's genuinely difficult to fathom how utterly woeful those sides were unless you saw them play. They were a one man band.

The problem is both were great cricketers in their own way. But Miandad was more entertaining to watch but if you ask me to choose a player in my test side I will go for Border and definitely laid the foundation for Australian Dominance in 90s. But the point with Pakistan players is it’s very difficult to manage them and you need different skills which only Imran Khan had. So Captaincy is not a criteria we can bring into discussion as to become a successful Pakistan captain is very tough as the board and players are very corrupted.