Is AB de Villiers an ATG test batsman?

[Kenneth Viljoen]

Most definitely , and of course he makes our country's all time Test XI even as a batsman ..

He put in the work , 14 years service , helped the team become World No.1 for the first time ever, big big contributions in our first ever test series wins in Australia and England , can't be accused of minnow bashing either cause his record against 2000's Bangladesh isn't great and he only played 4 tests vs Zimbabwe ..And in our first test series win at home to Australia since 70 he was the difference again ,his final Swansong sadly . Also for someone accused of being selfish in some circles , he sure was willing to do what was necessary, test opener , wicketkeeper, no.4 , no.5 , no.6 , Test captain , he did almost everything..once played 98 tests in a row , 6th most of all time . Brilliant player

 

[StephenZA]

Most definitely , and of course he makes our country's all time Test XI even as a batsman ..

In place of?

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

In place of?

Ideally I'd pick him as a keeper batsman cause his fielding skills were such a high standard , but with Kallis as my all-rounder he wouldn't have to replace anyone I'd have AB at no.6 ..
3.Kallis 4.Nourse 5.Pollock 6.De Villiers ..If I'm choosing a keeper it's Dennis Lindsay at No.7 ,but I would rather give AB the gloves and have Aubrey Faulkner at No.7 cause legspinning batting all rounders are rare in our parts of the world .

 

[shortpitched713]

The modern era includes the vast majority of tests ever played, and the highest standards. You would expect a high proportion of ATGs to come from this period, whether or not being the 13th best from the era is good enough to get you into ATG levels.

Greg Chappell
Sunil Gavaskar
Viv Richards
Javed Miandad
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Jacques Kallis
Kumar Sangakkara

Here's who I've got as unquestioned top 8 ATGs in my mind, from this era. Above AdV I've still got to put a bunch of Australians, Dravid, and some active players as well, just off the top of my mind.

How are you an "ATG", if there are multiple tiers ahead of you? What does ATG even mean then anymore?

Top 5-10 bats during his time, sure. But let's not water down what we mean by ATG.

 

[Archer6K]

Greg Chappell
Sunil Gavaskar
Viv Richards
Javed Miandad
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Jacques Kallis
Kumar Sangakkara

Here's who I've got as unquestioned top 8 ATGs in my mind, from this era. Above AdV I've still got to put a bunch of Australians, Dravid, and some active players as well, just off the top of my mind.

How are you an "ATG", if there are multiple tiers ahead of you? What does ATG even mean then anymore?

Top 5-10 bats during his time, sure. But let's not water down what we mean by ATG.

Why didn't you include Allan Border?

 

[shortpitched713]

Why didn't you include Allan Border?

I think all the names on this list are better.

 

[Coronis]

I think all the names on this list are better.

@Burgey

 

[subshakerz]

I think all the names on this list are better.

Border and Waugh must be there.

 

[Bolo.]

Greg Chappell
Sunil Gavaskar
Viv Richards
Javed Miandad
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Jacques Kallis
Kumar Sangakkara

Here's who I've got as unquestioned top 8 ATGs in my mind, from this era. Above AdV I've still got to put a bunch of Australians, Dravid, and some active players as well, just off the top of my mind.

How are you an "ATG", if there are multiple tiers ahead of you? What does ATG even mean then anymore?

Top 5-10 bats during his time, sure. But let's not water down what we mean by ATG.

Bradman, Sobers (AR), Lara and Miandad are notably different in quality... multiple tiers clearly exist within ATGs.

I'm picking 15 or 20 bats as ATGs in modern cricket. You are picking 8. With no single definition for ATG, the distinction is arbitrary, and we are both excluding about 1000 (or whatever the number is).

 

[shortpitched713]

Border and Waugh must be there.

Not for me.

 

[shortpitched713]

Bradman, Sobers (AR), Lara and Miandad are notably different in quality... multiple tiers clearly exist within ATGs.

I'm picking 15 or 20 bats as ATGs in modern cricket. You are picking 8. With no single definition for ATG, the distinction is arbitrary, and we are both excluding about 1000 (or whatever the number is).

ATG = All Time Great

lest we forget . A guy who can't be argued as the best, or maybe top 2 ala Messi/Ronaldo, at the time he is playing, can't be an ATG for mine.

 

[srbhkshk]

Personally ABdV is unquestionably an ATG for me, could play any type of bowling on any kind of pitches and make it look like child's play, was a true all format great as well which seems to not matter here but I personally value as something quite a bit harder than just tearing it up in one format. His keeping is a bonus as well. Being called an underachiever with an average of 50+ and 22 centuries is just a node to his talent. He also batted very often at 5 and 6 so the low century thing is a bit of an unfair moniker - has the 5th highest all time century count from these positions.

Now it's true he could have benefited SA a bit more with some different decisions but that's not really a statement on his ability and given how politically/systematically weird the SA system tends to be I am almost always inclined to think that whatever decisions a player from there makes is probably the correct (or at least understandable) one even if it's hard to see why from the outside.

I am a bit biased here because I don't think I have ever seen a better batsman compared to him in full flow but still.

 

[Bolo.]

ATG = All Time Great

lest we forget . A guy who can't be argued as the best, or maybe top 2 ala Messi/Ronaldo, at the time he is playing, can't be an ATG for mine.

The quality of a player is somewhat independent of the quality of other players. You think there can be no ATGs from Bradman's time because he was an outlier? A player from his era averaging 85 would not meet your standards, but a player averaging 50 in the 80s could. Or that the number of ATGs at any given time remains the same when we have 6 times more teams playing now than at the beginning of test cricket?

ATGs can definitely come in clusters like 80s/90s bowlers and 2000 bats.

 

[subshakerz]

The quality of a player is somewhat independent of the quality of other players. You think there can be no ATGs from Bradman's time because he was an outlier? A player from his era averaging 85 would not meet your standards, but a player averaging 50 in the 80s could. Or that the number of ATGs at any given time remains the same when we have 6 times more teams playing now than at the beginning of test cricket?

ATGs can definitely come in clusters like 80s/90s bowlers and 2000 bats.

Name me an ATG who wasn't considered the best/second best bat or bowler at some point in their career.

 

[Sunil1z]

I don't think there has been an occasion when there were more than three established ATGs playing in a particular discipline in international cricket.

90s
McGrath, Donald, Akram, Ambrose, Warne

I am assuming Murali became ATG in 00

 

[srbhkshk]

I don't think there has been an occasion when there were more than three established ATGs playing in a particular discipline in international cricket.

wouldn't the careers of Sachin , Lara , Kallis , Ponting , Dravid , Sanga etc. overlap?

 

[Sunil1z]

80s
Marshall, Imran, Garner, Hadlee , Holding

 

[subshakerz]

90s
McGrath, Donald, Akram, Ambrose, Warne

I am assuming Murali became ATG in 00

McGrath became ATG later than the others, early 2000s.

 

[subshakerz]

80s
Marshall, Imran, Garner, Hadlee , Holding

Garner and Holding ain't ATG.

 

[shortpitched713]

The quality of a player is somewhat independent of the quality of other players. You think there can be no ATGs from Bradman's time because he was an outlier? A player from his era averaging 85 would not meet your standards, but a player averaging 50 in the 80s could. Or that the number of ATGs at any given time remains the same when we have 6 times more teams playing now than at the beginning of test cricket?

ATGs can definitely come in clusters like 80s/90s bowlers and 2000 bats.

Eww at bolded statement. Just because the averages for either bowlers or batsmen look better in a specific timeframe, doesn't mean you suddenly have no ATGs from one period and suddenly spawn a bunch in another. That isn't down to skills, just conditions. Condition independent, ie era adjusted stats have to be looked at in my opinion.

From there, you have some which rise multiple standard deviations over the mean, and the ones that separate themselves the most are your ATGs. Technically, there doesn't have to be any in a given time, or there may be a couple at another time. However, we are looking at different ideas clearly, as I'd never state there are 5 ATGs at a given time which is what would be required for AdV to join the list. Usually there is 1 or 2 that separate themself the most, and that for me can join the ATG list.