Jacques Kallis vs Imran Khan

[subshakerz]

Yup. Happens always

I am not sure if cricket will see a cricketer like Imran in the 1980s, once he emerged from WSC.

From his first major all-round series against WI in 1980/81, he had a sequence of being man of the series 8 times in 18 series until retirement.

That included four MOS awards on the trot in Pakistan, India, England and WI. In fact, he likely would have had six on the trot but rain stopped the 1988 series in NZ in which he performed from fully completing.

He has three MOS awards against WI, including at their peak in 80/81. Unlike Kallis' bowling, he has two MOS based purely on his batting performances against India. Most impressively, in this time, he never had a series when he collectively failed with bat and ball. He was the ultimate performer.

 

[ankitj]

Again shocked to learn of his achievements. Never paid attention to MoS awards he collected. That's quite impressive.

I did once go through series by series performances of Hadlee and he had a pretty impressive streak of MoS awards too.

 

[h_hurricane]

Kallis has overachieved in this poll.

This is unfair to Kallis. Not sure if you were serious though.

The guy scored over 13K runs and took nearly 300 wickets at batting average ratio of 1.7 times his bowling average. This is even higher than Imran and only marginally less than Sobers, the GOAT. Though I am talking of just numbers here, we get an idea of how great a cricketer he was. Kallis didn't take much of an injury break either which meant he kept playing, playing and playing with a random niggle here and there pretty sure. Coming up with those numbers for 17 years @10 tests a year takes some doing. I am not sure we will see another player like him.

Though I voted for Imran, I can see a good reason for people going for Kallis. He doesn't have a peak like Imran. He doesn't need one. Rating Kallis ahead of Imran is not ridiculous.

 

[subshakerz]

This is unfair to Kallis. Not sure if you were serious though.

The guy scored over 13K runs and took nearly 300 wickets at batting average ratio of 1.7 times his bowling average. This is even higher than Imran and only marginally less than Sobers, the GOAT. Though I am talking of just numbers here, we get an idea of how great a cricketer he was. Kallis didn't take much of an injury break either which meant he kept playing, playing and playing with a random niggle here and there pretty sure. Coming up with those numbers for 17 years @10 tests a year takes some doing. I am not sure we will see another player like him.

Though I voted for Imran, I can see a good reason for people going for Kallis. He doesn't have a peak like Imran. He doesn't need one. Rating Kallis ahead of Imran is not ridiculous.

Kallis faced a similar result against Hadlee. Nobody is disputing with his raw output numbers and average but he needs more than that when compared to top tier ATGs.

 

[honestbharani]

Because even though he was consistent he didn't have a lot of high scoring knocks as he batted 6/7 and his own style of play wasn't the most eye catching like Botham and Kapil.

And you do realize consistent 40s are not what top 6 batsmen are selected for? Or is that concept alien to you like most of test cricket seems to be?

 

[trundler]

And you do realize consistent 40s are not what top 6 batsmen are selected for? Or is that concept alien to you like most of test cricket seems to be?

Not ideally but a #6 who gets 40s regularly is what most teams can realistically hope for. Even West Indies had jobbers like Gomes and Gus Logie as test regulars. Considering the era, Imran's output was good enough for a #6, which for a guy who was consistently in the top 3 in his primary discipline is a pretty big bonus. The point is hE wuZ onLy HadlEe lEvel wen bowl gud is a categorically false statement and as such Imran was a level above in his secondary discipline compared to Kallis.

 

[subshakerz]

And you do realize consistent 40s are not what top 6 batsmen are selected for? Or is that concept alien to you like most of test cricket seems to be?

Again, look at the 80s era and the kind of batsmen that made it into the top 6 of almost all teams. Imran would fit comfortably in any side and your own bias is stopping you from admitting it.

If you look as his career progressed, in the early 70s, he was a pure tailender, late 70s a regular no.8, early 80s a regular no 7, mid 80s a regular no.6 and by the end he would promote himself to 4/5 when Pakistan were in trouble and steady the ship. Pretty steady progression and improvement.

 

[honestbharani]

Not ideally but a #6 who gets 40s regularly is what most teams can realistically hope for. Even West Indies had jobbers like Gomes and Gus Logie as test regulars. Considering the era, Imran's output was good enough for a #6, which for a guy who was consistently in the top 3 in his primary discipline is a pretty big bonus. The point is hE wuZ onLy HadlEe lEvel wen bowl gud is a categorically false statement and as such Imran was a level above in his secondary discipline compared to Kallis.

I think there is a lot of space between saying Imran was a very good #7 and an excellent new ball bowler, which he was, and saying he was good enough to play for most teams as a batsman, which is just hyperbolic BS and nowhere close to the truth.

 

[honestbharani]

Again, look at the 80s era and the kind of batsmen that made it into the top 6 of almost all teams. Imran would fit comfortably in any side and your own bias is stopping you from admitting it.

Nah..all those batsmen were actually better and Imran wont have made the improvements to his batting he did, if he was not as good a bowler as he was. The simple point is he was never good enough to be a top 6 batsman for a test side, which your own bias is stopping you from accepting.

 

[subshakerz]

Nah..all those batsmen were actually better and Imran wont have made the improvements to his batting he did, if he was not as good a bowler as he was. The simple point is he was never good enough to be a top 6 batsman for a test side, which your own bias is stopping you from accepting.

But the fact is that he did make those improvements. The question is whether with those improvement he was good enough to be a test standard bat. I think him being picked as a bat alone for Pakistan when injured as a bowler, averaging 46 with the bat for 12 years and getting MOS based on his batting are proof enough. By the late 80s he had achieved a 12th ranked batting position in the world. Saying he was never good enough to be in the top six is stretching it.

Again, each side in that era except WI had a regular sub-35 averaging batsman in their top 6 at some point. Imran would have been good enough.

 

[ankitj]

This is 1980s.



****ing ridiculous numbers for Imran.

 

[Slifer]

But the fact is that he did make those improvements. The question is whether with those improvement he was good enough to be a test standard bat. I think him being picked as a bat alone for Pakistan when injured as a bowler, averaging 46 with the bat for 12 years and getting MOS based on his batting are proof enough. By the late 80s he had achieved a 12th ranked batting position in the world. Saying he was never good enough to be in the top six is stretching it.

Again, each side in that era except WI had a regular sub-35 averaging batsman in their top 6 at some point. Imran would have been good enough.

I can guarantee you that if Imran was available to the WI then Larry would've been out and Harper would've probably gotten more games:

Greenidge
Haynes
Richardson
Viv
Lloyd*
Imran
Dujon+
Marshall
Holding
Harper
Garner

 

[Migara]

hmm

If Imran averages 10 less, he still makes most 80s sides surely - that's accounting for a massive discrepancy.

Even if Imran averages 0 with the bat, he will make all the sides of the era as a bowler.

 

[Migara]

The point is that he was already considered good enough to play solo as a bat. Pretty much every side in that era, WI aside, had an Imran level or worse batsman in their top six.

WI had Gus Logie, Keith Arthurton and Carl Hooper those days. Imran averages just about same as them in his career and 10 points clear of them post 80s. Infact any good late middle order bat could make that WI side. A spin bowling allrounder would have been a starting name in the side.

 

[Migara]

I can guarantee you that if Imran was available to the WI then Larry would've been out and Harper would've probably gotten more games:

Greenidge
Haynes
Richardson
Viv
Lloyd*
Imran
Dujon+
Marshall
Holding
Harper
Garner

Never mind Imran, Even Shakib or Jadeja would make that side replacing Gomes / Logie and Hooper

 

[Kirkut]

Mohinder Amarnath's stats. Almost 68 away from home and under 30 at home

The kind of hype Mohinder Amarnath gets makes me think that he would have scored 700+ runs against Australia in a series had he faced peak Johnson from 2014.

 

[ankitj]

Never mind Imran, Even Shakib or Jadeja would make that side replacing Gomes / Logie and Hooper

Even Jadeja????

 

[trundler]

Imran easily replaces Logie, Greg Ritchie, Tavare, Srikanth, and Jeff Crowe. All were test regulars and he's objectively better than all of them without considering his bowling. I don't think this is controversial. I tend to think lower order averages can be misleading but it's not like anyone's claiming Imran was as good as Greenidge in the 80s based on averages. So that's a moot point. No one can dispute his bowling credentials. It's almost as if people don't want to believe he was as good as he was. We're not even accounting for how revolutionary he was as the subcontinent's first great pacer and totally ignoring the gravity of this bloke picking up series defining daddy hauls everywhere he went and going toe to toe with the greatest side in history. Just the raw numbers without context are staggering. Frankly, Imran wipes the floor with any cricketer not named Bradman or Sobers. People want to make assumptions that belittle his achievements when he ticks every box whether it's impact performances, big series away from home, historical impact, performances against the best sides or longevity. It's really odd that people pretend he was no good as a batsman when he was the world's greatest bowler yet pretend his bowling stats don't suffer because he managed to prolong his career past 2 decades as a specialist batsmen after suffering a career ending injury. It's simply remarkable how he plowed through so much agony as an old man to transform himself in such an unprecedented way. Imran also had a much longer career before the specialist batsman phase than almost every other ATG pacer too. Over his best 12 or so years (which is how long great pacers generally play) no bowler has had a better record. Literally the greatest bowling peak in a century as well as top 6 batsman output. I doubt anyone will ever come close to replicating his feats. Muh home umpiring when he was literally a better batsman away and no one else has 10 wicket hauls in 4 separate countries.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Imran easily replaces Logie, Greg Ritchie, Tavare, Srikanth, and Jeff Crowe. All were test regulars and he's objectively better than all of them without considering his bowling. I don't think this is controversial. I tend to think lower order averages can be misleading but it's not like anyone's claiming Imran was as good as Greenidge in the 80s based on averages. So that's a moot point. No one can dispute his bowling credentials. It's almost as if people don't want to believe he was as good as he was. We're not even accounting for how revolutionary he was as the subcontinent's first great pacer and totally ignoring the gravity of this bloke picking up series defining daddy hauls everywhere he went and going toe to toe with the greatest side in history. Just the raw numbers without context are staggering. Frankly, Imran wipes the floor with any cricketer not named Bradman or Sobers. People want to make assumptions that belittle his achievements when he ticks every box whether it's impact performances, big series away from home, historical impact, performances against the best sides or longevity. It's really odd that people pretend he was no good as a batsman when he was the world's greatest bowler yet pretend his bowling stats don't suffer because he managed to prolong his career past 2 decades as a specialist batsmen after suffering a career ending injury. It's simply remarkable how he plowed through so much agony as an old man to transform himself in such an unprecedented way. Imran also had a much longer career before the specialist batsman phase than almost every other ATG pacer too. Over his best 12 or so years (which is how long great pacers generally play) no bowler has had a better record. Literally the greatest bowling peak in a century as well as top 6 batsman output. I doubt anyone will ever come close to replicating his feats. Muh home umpiring when he was literally a better batsman away and no one else has 10 wicket hauls in 4 separate countries.

Oddly despite his amazing record he never won any games of cricket so I'm voting Kallis.

 

[ankitj]

Frankly, Imran wipes the floor with any cricketer not named Bradman or Sobers.

I'm starting to think Imran pushes Sobers. He would have in opinions of pundits if he played for Australia or England.