Jacques Kallis vs Imran Khan

[Slifer]

I'm starting to think Imran pushes Sobers. He would have in opinions of pundits if he played for Australia or England.

He might've if he actually played Shield cricket like Sobers did. Sobers is West Indian and I doubt pundits in England or Australia think any higher of West Indians vs Pakistanis or anyone else. Sobers earned his reputation and fwiw, it is close between Imran and Sobers. Their bowling and batting cancel each others out but Sobers is a much better fielder. Captaincy is not an individual skill. And captaincy is not an opportunity afforded to all players in an XI, unlike batting and fielding which everyone must to and bowling where there are usually 4 to 5 specialists.

 

[trundler]

I've taken to some real low brow shitposting in the Kallis threads out of annoyance but I do agree with PEWS on his batting being underrated and bowling being overrated. It's weird because he has a pretty average and he's definitely better than the traditional batting all rounder like Dexter or Worrell but the bowling stats are definitely boosted by minnow bashing and the low WPM puts an asterisk next to the average for me (much like lower order averages for batsmen). He's also definitely not as good an all rounder as Sobers, Imran or Miller though IMO. There's no other exact rival for him. I understand someone saying Kallis > Imran in their primary disciplines with Kallis being the only SA batsman to average 50+ at home and all but the vice versa statement is just insanity to me. Ps I also rate Hadlee very highly, that's no slight on the great man but he's just been pitted against a couple of cricketers I revere lately.

Sobers is a freak too, obviously and has the craziest list of all round feats.

 

[thierry henry]

To me Hadlee is a bit off the pace because his batting just isn't really at a level to properly put him in the all-rounders conversation.

The case for him being a better PLAYER than the likes of Kallis seems to rest on his bowling being elevated to a distinctly higher tier than Kallis, somewhere around about GOAT level. This is not something I've ever entirely understood, if only because Hadlee is from NZ and lord knows our pitches used to do a bit.

 

[trundler]

To me Hadlee is a bit off the pace because his batting just isn't really at a level to properly put him in the all-rounders conversation.

The case for him being a better PLAYER than the likes of Kallis seems to rest on his bowling being elevated to a distinctly higher tier than Kallis, somewhere around about GOAT level. This is not something I've ever entirely understood, if only because Hadlee is from NZ and lord knows our pitches used to do a bit.

I thought Hadlee had a Bret Hart in Canada status in NZ lore.

 

[subshakerz]

I've taken to some real low brow ****posting in the Kallis threads out of annoyance but I do agree with PEWS on his batting being underrated and bowling being overrated. It's weird because he has a pretty average and he's definitely better than the traditional batting all rounder like Dexter or Worrell but the bowling stats are definitely boosted by minnow bashing and the low WPM puts an asterisk next to the average for me (much like lower order averages for batsmen). He's also definitely not as good an all rounder as Sobers, Imran or Miller though IMO. There's no other exact rival for him. I understand someone saying Kallis > Imran in their primary disciplines with Kallis being the only SA batsman to average 50+ at home and all but the vice versa statement is just insanity to me. Ps I also rate Hadlee very highly, that's no slight on the great man but he's just been pitted against a couple of cricketers I revere lately.

Sobers is a freak too, obviously and has the craziest list of all round feats.

I think Miller vs Kallis as cricketers would be a good contest.

 

[Bolo.]

Imrans peak was ridiculous.

Either discuss entire careers or don't bother debating. You are preaching to the choir. Nobody thinks Kallis was anywhere near peak Imran. Arguing for his peak is basically a straw man.

 

[ZK$]

Imran >>> Kallis due to Imran’s peak.

 

[subshakerz]

Imrans peak was ridiculous.

Either discuss entire careers or don't bother debating. You are preaching to the choir. Nobody thinks Kallis was anywhere near peak Imran. Arguing for his peak is basically a straw man.

The numbers they are talking about cover 63 of 88 tests that Imran played in which he averaged 46 with the bat and 22 with the ball.

Anyways, peak or overall, Imran is better.

 

[ashley bach]

To me Hadlee is a bit off the pace because his batting just isn't really at a level to properly put him in the all-rounders conversation.

The case for him being a better PLAYER than the likes of Kallis seems to rest on his bowling being elevated to a distinctly higher tier than Kallis, somewhere around about GOAT level. This is not something I've ever entirely understood, if only because Hadlee is from NZ and lord knows our pitches used to do a bit.

I thought Hadlee had a Bret Hart in Canada status in NZ lore.

Hadlee's bowling is definitely what elevates him up any list, and I reckon there's not much doubt he's one of the best 6 bowlers ever, at least.
His 33 wickets @12 in that series in Australia really was something special, no ones gone close to matching that.

 

[ashley bach]

Imran the better cricketer I think, but couldn't say he's miles better, Jacques was brilliant but he's had some seriously tough opponents lately.

 

[Chrish]

When comparing bowlers, I put Marshall and McGrath in their own tier. Everyone else is quite clearly below them in my eyes.

 

[Victor Ian]

Hadlee's bowling is definitely what elevates him up any list, and I reckon there's not much doubt he's one of the best 6 bowlers ever, at least.
His 33 wickets @12 in that series in Australia really was something special, no ones gone close to matching that.

Few have bowled to that level of dross.

 

[ashley bach]

Few have bowled to that level of dross.

Sure it wasn't the best Australian team, but you can only bowl to what's put in front of you.
Others at the time got to bowl at that dross mind you.

 

[ashley bach]

When comparing bowlers, I put Marshall and McGrath in their own tier. Everyone else is quite clearly below them in my eyes.

Fair enough, but what is it that make these 2 stand in their own tier, say compared to say Steyn, Hadlee, Akram, Lillee?

 

[Chrish]

McGrath was virtually unhittable. I honestly don’t recall that many occasions in test where he was taken apart. Even when I see highlights of VVs 281 for example, you would barely see any fours scored from McGrath. It’s like he doesn’t even exist in those highlights! Batsmen often showed him respect and went after other bowlers. And he bowled on wickets that were far less lively than those seen in 70s/ 80s.

Marshall did everything that McGrath did but at 10-20k higher speed. He was the ultimate pace bowler!

 

[anil1405]

The thing with Kallis is that he played in a team setup that appeared collectively restricted in playing aggressive cricket with the bat, for strange reasons employed by the higher management.

Had Kallis played in a different setup or in the company of more aggressive batters he would've been held in higher regards imo.

With regards to the poll, Imran the better cricketer.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Imran.
Because, he is the 4th greatest allrounder after Sobers, Procter and Hadlee ( not considering WG).

 

[subshakerz]

When comparing bowlers, I put Marshall and McGrath in their own tier. Everyone else is quite clearly below them in my eyes.

Hadlee and McGrath are very, very hard to separate.

 

[Anil]

Hadlee and McGrath are very, very hard to separate.

why? it's not like they are conjoined twins or anything...

 

[ataraxia]

Imran.
Because, he is the 4th greatest allrounder after Sobers, Procter and Hadlee ( not considering WG).

Imran's just Procter but he achieved one level higher.

Like, I rate Procter and I do realise who I'm talking to, but - really?