• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Is Ashwin an ATG spinner / player?

OverratedSanity

OverratedSanity

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Slifer said:
Tbf, it's not as if the none Asian spinners are winning them many tests in Asia either.

Probably because Asian spinners like Jadeja and Ashwin and Murali are probably as unplayable in their home conditions as Philander was in RSA. Nevertheless, you'll hardly see a spinner rip through decent batting lineup outside of Asia, the way Steyn ripped through India years ago, or Donald and co did to India in 2002, or Gillespie and co to India in 2004. Fact is, none of Walsh, Hadlee, Ambrose, Donald, Pollock, McGrath, Marshall, Steyn whomever, have bad records in Asia, compared to "most" spinners. Warne and to an extent Murali would be the only recent exceptions, hence why they're held in such high esteem.
Click to expand...
You're right, and it's pretty much undisputable fact that ATG pacers have a kind of all conditions match winning ability that most spinners can't imagine doing.

However, I do have to point out to @subshakerz that the thing about Ashwin's lack of 5fers in SENA conditions recently when everyone acknowledges he's bowled well seems a kind of silly thing to hold against him? McGrath has a grand total of 1 5fer in Asia, it'd be ridiculous to hold that against him. And no I'm not saying Ashwin has been as good overseas as McGrath was, but it seems like an arbitrary metric? "Match-winning spell" seems pretty vague too. Imo, Ashwin was arguably our best bowler in the MCG win. Took key top order wickets (especially Labu and Smith) and considering how people don't value tailend wickets here would people suddenly call this a match winning spell if he'd wiped out the tail and got 6fer? Meh. Atleast be a little consistent.
 
honestbharani

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I was exaggerating to make a point, guys. Of course I think Imran is an ATG even as a bowler. :)

And I am pretty sure I have mentioned it elsewhere here before. It was just such a pointlessly stupid post that I was responding to. So I repllied in kind.
 
h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
I think we all can agree now that Ashwin is an ATG.

A cool Ashwin stat : Only cricketer with 30 five wicket hauls and 5 test hundreds (this stat is a bit biased towards bowling allrounders admittedly).
No spinner(apart from Jadeja of course) in history has combined destructive home bowling and quality lower order batting as well as him.
 
0

_00_deathscar

International Regular
Slifer said:
Tbf, it's not as if the none Asian spinners are winning them many tests in Asia either.

Probably because Asian spinners like Jadeja and Ashwin and Murali are probably as unplayable in their home conditions as Philander was in RSA. Nevertheless, you'll hardly see a spinner rip through decent batting lineup outside of Asia, the way Steyn ripped through India years ago, or Donald and co did to India in 2002, or Gillespie and co to India in 2004. Fact is, none of Walsh, Hadlee, Ambrose, Donald, Pollock, McGrath, Marshall, Steyn whomever, have bad records in Asia, compared to "most" spinners. Warne and to an extent Murali would be the only recent exceptions, hence why they're held in such high esteem.
Click to expand...
Isn’t there an argument that they just played in really good teams overall? Jadeja and Ashwin have much more improved records overseas too, both as they matured and also as the team overall got better in competing outside Asia.

I mean it’s not like you’re listing decent bowlers from **** teams…
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
h_hurricane said:
I think we all can agree now that Ashwin is an ATG.

A cool Ashwin stat : Only cricketer with 30 five wicket hauls and 5 test hundreds (this stat is a bit biased towards bowling allrounders admittedly).
No spinner(apart from Jadeja of course) in history has combined destructive home bowling and quality lower order batting as well as him.
Click to expand...
Shakib asks to be noticed. Averages 40 with the bat at home and 31 with the ball. 13 five fors and 2 centuries.
 
Daemon

Daemon

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Migara said:
Shakib asks to be noticed. Averages 40 with the bat at home and 31 with the ball. 13 five fors and 2 centuries.
Click to expand...
Batted 7 against Pakistan for no reason this game despite being their best batsman. Man dgaf.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
OverratedSanity said:
You're right, and it's pretty much undisputable fact that ATG pacers have a kind of all conditions match winning ability that most spinners can't imagine doing.

However, I do have to point out to @subshakerz that the thing about Ashwin's lack of 5fers in SENA conditions recently when everyone acknowledges he's bowled well seems a kind of silly thing to hold against him? McGrath has a grand total of 1 5fer in Asia, it'd be ridiculous to hold that against him. And no I'm not saying Ashwin has been as good overseas as McGrath was, but it seems like an arbitrary metric? "Match-winning spell" seems pretty vague too. Imo, Ashwin was arguably our best bowler in the MCG win. Took key top order wickets (especially Labu and Smith) and considering how people don't value tailend wickets here would people suddenly call this a match winning spell if he'd wiped out the tail and got 6fer? Meh. Atleast be a little consistent.
Click to expand...
A few points:

- It's not Ashwin's lack of fifers alone in SENA that is held against him, it is that it is an indication of lack of impact in these countries, along with poor average and other metrics. You would expect any worldclass bowler to have gone through a batting order at least once in 20 tests he has played here, he is the same guy who took 24 fifers in 49 tests at home. Its not that he hasnt achieved a certain number of fifers in SENA, its the complete absence that is odd. Of course, if he had excellent averages in all these countries it wouldnt be as big an issue.

- Fifers do not equal matchwinning performances, but they often turn out to be such. Matchwinning performances by bowlers either set up or seal victories in tests. Most such performances are not hard to spot at all. For a good spinner in SENA, the most you can expect is to occasionally produce such a performance on a 4th or 5th day wicket which Ashwin hasnt done while even lesser bowlers like Yasir Shah, Lyon and Herath have. Examples below:
www.espncricinfo.com

Full Scorecard of Pakistan vs England 1st Investec Test 2016 - Score Report | ESPNcricinfo.com

Complete Scorecard of Pakistan vs England 1st Investec Test 2016, PAK tour of ENG only on ESPNcricinfo.com. Find the complete scorecard of Pakistan vs England 1st Investec Test Online
www.espncricinfo.com www.espncricinfo.com
www.espncricinfo.com

Full Scorecard of Australia vs England 1st Test 2019 - Score Report | ESPNcricinfo.com

Complete Scorecard of Australia vs England 1st Test 2019, Australia in ENG only on ESPNcricinfo.com. Find the complete scorecard of Australia vs England 1st Test Online
www.espncricinfo.com www.espncricinfo.com
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...a-vs-sri-lanka-2nd-test-514033/full-scorecard

- I admit Ashwin was a much improved bowler in Australia but I am not sure I would call him matchwinning yet though he made much more impact than previously. In the example you gave, if he took a 6fer as well as running through the top and lower order, yes that would be a better performance since he would show he can run through the lineup without much support and tailenders still need to be removed.

- Ashwin seems to be on a growth trajectory. He is more accurate away and dips the ball better now than I saw in 2018. I fully expected him to win a game this summer in England and put this issue to rest but Kohli dropped him unexpectedly.

- This may seem like nitpicking but we are talking about ATG status, which to me is the highest echelon of cricketers. You cant have gaps this big in your record.
 
Last edited:
Shri

Shri

Mr. Glass
subshakerz said:
- I admit Ashwin was a much improved bowler in Australia but I am not sure I would call him matchwinning yet though he made much more impact than previously. In the example you gave, if he took a 6fer as well as running through the top and lower order, yes that would be a better performance since he would show he can run through the lineup without much support and tailenders still need to be removed.
Click to expand...
So you want the other bowlers in his side that he's playing with to be **** so he can get an imaginary fifer? This line of thought is ****ing stupid tstl.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Shri said:
So you want the other bowlers in his side that he's playing with to be **** so he can get an imaginary fifer? This line of thought is ****ing stupid tstl.
Click to expand...
You act as if bowlers who played in all-star lineups like McGrath, Warne or Marshall never ran through sides on their own.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
_00_deathscar said:
That’s cos the batsmen in those places are ****.
My point is that most ATGs have some gaping holes.

There are very few that don’t.
Click to expand...
Not a hole that big. We wouldnt call a batsman an ATG if he played 20 tests in India/Pak/Sri Lanka, averaged 30 and never scored a ton.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Top