Virat Kohli, the greatest ODI bat ever?

[Burgey]

There is a little bit of indirect belittling of Sachin currently based on Kohli's exploits. It is happening with my Indian friends as well. But those who saw Sachin play in the 90s and still remember it, will know very well that Sachin will fare better than Kohli in current playing conditions.

Sachin is Rohit+Kohli moulded into one. One who is capable of getting those big 100s consistently as well as strike it cleanly from ball one. I have not seen Viv play live, so cannot comment much on him. But going by the stats and videos, he is terrific as well.

I will just group Sachin, Kohli and Viv in the top bracket and leave it at that since they all belong to totally different ODI eras. Instead of rating them one above another.

And on Stephen saying Bevan was better than Sachin, I don't think he was the best player in his own team. Ponting was. He is great yes, but had his limitations compared to the others mentioned here. Bevan and Dhoni are in the next rung along with Ponting, Gilchrist, Jayasuriya, Lara among others.

I think this comment about the three players being closely grouped together is fair enough.

I also think the roles played by Tendulkar and bevan are so different that they're really not even competing for the same title. Only thing they really have in common is they both held a bat. One was a great opener, the other a great finisher, with all the attendant variables in between them.

 

[ankitj]

Kohli still has to beat Tendulkar on lengevity although he has beaten him on peak form. Tendulkar's career spanned 23 years and he was 1st or 2nd highest run getter in 3 different world cups, 15 years apart. That cannot be overlooked.

 

[Spark]

One thing that I suppose you could count in Tendulkar’s favour was that bilateral/non-WC ODI cricket was held in higher regard during his time. So teams were more likely to field their strongest sides and take series more seriously than they do today.

Mind you I think something pretty bizarre would have to happen in the next 5 or so years for Kohli not to be regarded as the ODI GOAT. His complete mastery of the format is genuinely uncanny, and IMO pretty unique in a top-order ODI player.

 

[vcs]

Right now, it feels inconceivable for Kohli to not be regarded as an all-time top 3 ODI bat regardless of what happens from here on in. However, as I pointed out earlier, the decline will happen at some point and many people's perceptions will change a bit.

 

[mr_mister]

He's on track to crack Sachin's ton record in 100-150 less games lol. Itd have to be a decline worse than Dhoni and Sachin combined to rob him of number 1 of all time

 

[OverratedSanity]

All further evidence in my burgeoning thesis that ODI stats are worthless.

Meh, you're kinda overdoing this meme imo. Odi stats can be more misleading than test stats but they're definitely not meaningless.

 

[marc71178]

Meh, you're kinda overdoing this meme imo. Odi stats can be more misleading than test stats but they're definitely not meaningless.

Depends who is interpreting/quoting them. If it's Pap then they really are meaningless, mainly because they're made up.

 

[vcs]

Yeah, ODI stats over a reasonable sample size are not worthless.

T20I stats, on the other hand...

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Kohli still has to beat Tendulkar on lengevity although he has beaten him on peak form. Tendulkar's career spanned 23 years and he was 1st or 2nd highest run getter in 3 different world cups, 15 years apart. That cannot be overlooked.

Man of the match awards should not be used to rank players , but it's astonishing that Kohli still needs 30 of them to equal Sachin.

 

[Spark]

Meh, you're kinda overdoing this meme imo. Odi stats can be more misleading than test stats but they're definitely not meaningless.

My actual thesis is more nuanced: ODI stats are so situational, equivalent utility has such varying statistical expression from role-to-role and era-to-era, and do not have anything like a linear relationship between common stats and actual utility and performance, and thus should be used carefully and narrowly in targeted ways to make modest points with modest assumptions.

But given how ODI stats are actually used by the vast majority of people, this still turns out in practice to be roughly equivalent to "ODI stats are meaningless". Exhibit A being, well, a lot of this thread, frankly. Kohli is a ludicrous batsman because of the matches, i.e. the individual number of games of cricket, that he has either won decisively or made a hugely significant contribution towards (even when his team hasn't won, as was the case the other day).

The concept of marginal utility really does need to become much more prominent in cricket but particularly ODI cricket where it's so time-limited.

 

[Spark]

Also, not outs. They really do massively distort so many ODI statistics.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Can someone post % of team totals Viv , ABdV , Kohli and Sachin ( as opener , or excluding teenage phase ) scored in their entire career.

 

[Burgey]

Mate you’ve been pulling obscure stats out of your wazoo here. Surely you can look that **** up yourself.

 

[Burgey]

I mean:

How is that insane ?
Average great , SR very good.

I just randomly checked Sachin's chasing AVG between 1994 Jan 1 and 2004 Dec 31.
It's 50+ for 11 years.

50 then , 69 now.. I don't see any difference.

1994 onwards , Sachin stats easily the best in the world.

Wisden rated him 2nd best odi bat ever in 2002.

46 at 92 phenomenal
SR far greater than Kohli's

In today's terms , it's like 58 at 110 , not much different from Kohli stats .

What's amazing is , this stats includes 5 years of Sachin's teenage phase and lower order performances. It still compares well with "arguably the greatest chaser ever ".

I think , it's not fair to compare a school boy to a properly grown Cricketer.
That's ok when the guy starting at 15 and retiring at 30. But this is 15 to 40 which is basically an extra ordinary atg career of 20 yrs + extra 4 yrs. And people using that extra 4 yrs to devalue his achievements when comparing with other greats who were good enough to play only 20 yrs.
4 years is for additional points , comparisons must be 20 Vs 20.

Sachin as opener in 90s
142 matches , 49 AVG 92 SR

Overall
228 matches 43avg at 87 SR

Highest ever WC aggregate in 1996

24 X 100s , 40% lead over previous world record

35 man of the matches ( kohli yet to reach 35)

And he was just 26.

And then...

Can someone post % of team totals Viv , ABdV , Kohli and Sachin ( as opener , or excluding teenage phase ) scored in their entire career.

kinda doesn’t compute to me

 

[Bolo]

He's on track to crack Sachin's ton record in 100-150 less games lol. Itd have to be a decline worse than Dhoni and Sachin combined to rob him of number 1 of all time

Kohli is 30. Him playing to sachin or Dhonis age would be a huge chunk of his career. He could spend the rest of his career as an excellent bat and still destoy his stats.

Declines are hard to predict. Amla was also close to a 60 average at age 30. Viv was averaging 58 when he was 32.

 

[Top_Cat]

Can someone help me find my post from years ago where I said Kohli would end with more tons than Sachin and SS laughed at me, thanks.

 

[TheJediBrah]

People still trying to come up with reasons to rate Sachin higher than Kohli are up there with holocaust deniers and anti-vaxxers tbh

 

[harsh.ag]

Sachin > Kohli

The difference in eras is too big.

 

[mr_mister]

Modern cricket doesn't count guys

 

[smash84]

Nobody is trying to belittle Sachin.

Idiotic comments like avg of 46 back then equal 69 now probably belittle Kohli though