ODI ATG XIs

[h_hurricane]

Best Opening Batsmen in 90s

1. Sachin
Gap
2.Lara
3. M.waugh / Anwar / Jayasoorya

Replace "Gap" with "moderate upgrade" and take Waugh to 2.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Best Opening Batsmen in 90s

1. Sachin
Gap
2.Lara
3. M.waugh / Anwar / Jayasoorya

How big is the gap?

 

[Borges]

How big is the gap?

Smaller than a moderate upgrade.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Smaller than a moderate upgrade.

Iphone 5 to 5s

 

[mr_mister]

Saying that Tendulkar is only a moderate upgrade over Waugh is similar to stating that Warne is only a moderate upgrade over Kumble. Kumble was better than Warne in the 1996 World Cup where as Warne was better in 1999.
And while we are at it, I also learned that Wasim Akram is not even a moderate upgrade over Zaheer Khan. Zaheer was easily better than Wasim in 2003, the only World Cup they both played.

Mcgrath is also only a moderate upgrade over Srinath. Srinath was better in 1996 where as Mcgrath was better in 1999 and 2003.

Zaheer, Srinath and Kumble all played 12- 16 years, in the same ballpark as Waugh.

You could be a little gracious in victory lol. Warne only a moderate upgrade over Kumble in ODIs isn't that controversial is it? The McGrath example is dumb because it shows him outperforming Srinath in WCs 2-1 which Sachin didn't do to Waugh. Wasim was an old man by 03 and I wouldn't have had a case to begin with if Sachin/Waugh played one single WC together anyway.

My whole argument was that their overall records as openers was a decent gap, sure. Not twice the player or anything, but a decent gap. Then Waugh's performances in those highly competitive 90s WCs closed the gap to a moderate level. The gap was probably too big to close, but whatever.

 

[h_hurricane]

You could be a little gracious in victory lol. Warne only a moderate upgrade over Kumble in ODIs isn't that controversial is it? The McGrath example is dumb because it shows him outperforming Srinath in WCs 2-1 which Sachin didn't do to Waugh. Wasim was an old man by 03 and I wouldn't have had a case to begin with if Sachin/Waugh played one single WC together anyway.

My whole argument was that their overall records as openers was a decent gap, sure. Not twice the player or anything, but a decent gap. Then Waugh's performances in those highly competitive 90s WCs closed the gap to a moderate level. The gap was probably too big to close, but whatever.

Fair enough. While comparing two players, one would look a lot beyond world cups though.

My post was not a victory march or something But found the comparison a bit odd.

On a side note, "moderate upgrade" is a nice addition to the long list of frequently used words in cricketweb.

 

[mr_mister]

Fair enough. While comparing two players, one would look a lot beyond world cups though.

My post was not a victory march or something But found the comparison a bit odd.

On a side note, "moderate upgrade" is a nice addition to the long list of frequently used words in cricketweb.

Sorry I was a bit annoyed by the tone of sunilz post right after I admitted I was wrong and thought you were being sarcastic too. I should have directed that him.

I also feel the gap between Waugh and Sachin was surely a little closer than all those examples(such as McGrath/Srinath) before WCs are taken into account, as Junior was still obviously one of the best 90s openers while Srinath was kind of middling right? Anyway doesn't matter

And yeah, I just put a lot of stock in world cup performances. Always thought it was cool which players could rise to the occasion and which looked more comfortable in a JAMODI, ha

 

[Red]

No, I disagree. I wouldn't say that Gilchrist was a lemon. Horrendously overrated, yes; but he did have his days.

Haha. Yeh he was "horrendously overrated"!

fmd

 

[Red]

If we were doing schoolyard picks and someone took Sachin first and I had to take MWaugh second, I'd barely be disappointed. Lose very little in batting but gain a legit 5th bower plus the best slipper of the last 30 years who is also elite in the field anywhere in the ring.

 

[Red]

Fielding ODI XI

Gilchrist
M.Waugh
Ponting
Richards
Collingwood
Symonds
Rhodes
Hogg
Wasim
Lee
Garner

 

[Bolo]

If you use the wc as anything more than icing on a career or a tiebreaker between comparable players you will end up with a very strange list of players. I'm putting Steve
Smith in my world xi. Rather him than Tendulkar for his record in knockouts, which means I'm rating a week or so of his career above 24 years of Sachin's, and ignoring the fact that sachin has a better WC record across 6 WCs.

 

[Red]

When a player has only played in 2, or even 3, WC finals, it is unreasonable to judge them harshly if they've failed in those matches. A lot of what gets attributed to "choking" or "not being a big match player" is far more likely just the cycle of cricket not working in your favour that particular day.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

When a player has only played in 2, or even 3, WC finals, it is unreasonable to judge them harshly if they've failed in those matches. A lot of what gets attributed to "choking" or "not being a big match player" is far more likely just the cycle of cricket not working in your favour that particular day.

It's just that your level of cricket on that particular day is not up to par.

I always go back to 2003 WC final.

Sachin skying it back to McGrath.

 

[marc71178]

When a player has only played in 2, or even 3, WC finals, it is unreasonable to judge them harshly if they've failed in those matches. A lot of what gets attributed to "choking" or "not being a big match player" is far more likely just the cycle of cricket not working in your favour that particular day.

So by the flip side of that, why should they be feted for performing well in those games then? It’s just the cycle of cricket working in their favour.

 

[Red]

So by the flip side of that, why should they be feted for performing well in those games then? It’s just the cycle of cricket working in their favour.

Pretty reasonable to be honest. Far better to look at overall strength in a sustained "peak" (5-10 years), and the record against stronger opponents over a significant amount of matches.

It's why (when I'm not trying to trigger Indian fans) I put Sachin's test record so highly. 20 plus years in tests, never averaged below 40 against any opponent or in any country (and quite a few are a LONG way above 40). Averaged 50+ against Australia (McG/Warne), and in Australia.

Most complete batsman I've ever seen. Equally adept against pace or spin, or in any conditions.

 

[stephen]

Saying that Tendulkar is only a moderate upgrade over Waugh is similar to stating that Warne is only a moderate upgrade over Kumble. Kumble was better than Warne in the 1996 World Cup where as Warne was better in 1999.
And while we are at it, I also learned that Wasim Akram is not even a moderate upgrade over Zaheer Khan. Zaheer was easily better than Wasim in 2003, the only World Cup they both played.

Mcgrath is also only a moderate upgrade over Srinath. Srinath was better in 1996 where as Mcgrath was better in 1999 and 2003.

Zaheer, Srinath and Kumble all played 12- 16 years, in the same ballpark as Waugh.

Saying that Warne is a moderate upgrade over Kumble is fair. I'd never take Kumble over Warne but if Warne- calibre bowlers weren't available Kumble would be right near the top of the selection list (at least in tests, I never really developed an opinion of him in ODIs).

Moderate: average in amount, intensity, quality, or degree.

Saying that a tier 1 player is a moderate upgrade over a tier 2 player fits the dictionary definition perfectly.

As for Lara, there is very little to separate him and Waugh at ODI level.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

It's interesting to wonder how Warne would have done had he returned to the ODI team post his year long enforced holiday. Would have loved to see him and Hoggy operating in tandem, think that could have been very dangerous for batsman

 

[mr_mister]

Would it have meant Hogg would had to make way like Macgill though?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Saying that Warne is a moderate upgrade over Kumble is fair. I'd never take Kumble over Warne but if Warne- calibre bowlers weren't available Kumble would be right near the top of the selection list (at least in tests, I never really developed an opinion of him in ODIs).

Moderate: average in amount, intensity, quality, or degree.

Saying that a tier 1 player is a moderate upgrade over a tier 2 player fits the dictionary definition perfectly.

As for Lara, there is very little to separate him and Waugh at ODI level.

I had a feeling this would turn into an argument over the definition of "moderate"

It's interesting to wonder how Warne would have done had he returned to the ODI team post his year long enforced holiday. Would have loved to see him and Hoggy operating in tandem, think that could have been very dangerous for batsman

Warne would have been excellent but I doubt he'd have been much better than Hogg in ODIs, and I couldn't see them playing together with any sort of regularity.

 

[TheJediBrah]

When a player has only played in 2, or even 3, WC finals, it is unreasonable to judge them harshly if they've failed in those matches. A lot of what gets attributed to "choking" or "not being a big match player" is far more likely just the cycle of cricket not working in your favour that particular day.

Nah there's definitely some truth to this, but there is undoubtedly extra pressure that some players can handle better than others. It's obviously a small sample size but that doesn't mean that it should be discounted entirely.