ODI ATG XIs

[sunilz]

Though I'm sure my post clarifying that I am comparing them as openers will be conveniently ignored by sunilz, even their overall record would be identical if not for Sachin pasting 2 of his 3 tons in that time period against Kenya. I don't want to go down that road though.

Waugh averages 13 less as an opener if you exclude minnows in WC .
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

Ganguly >> Waugh.

 

[sunilz]

And upon further exploration, those stats posted by sunilz are incorrect anyway. Both Waugh and Sachin got around 1000 runs in those 3 world cups (Sachin closer to 1050) and that list is well under that mark.

I have excluded minnows . Don't tell me to include ZIM but exclude Kenya .

 

[Bolo]

So, to recap, we are comparing players by looking at only one tournament. And we have decided to ignore most iterations. And we are going to ignore all games except when they batted in a particular position. And we are going to ignore all games against half the opponents.

Sounds representative.

 

[mr_mister]

Waugh averages 13 less as an opener if you exclude minnows in WC .
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

Ganguly >> Waugh.

Zimbabwe were not a minnow around that era. In 1999 they made the Super 6, beating India and South Africa in the process.

Sachin failed against them in 96 with a 3, and Waugh got a 90 in 96 and 104 in 99.

Include them and run it back.

 

[mr_mister]

I have excluded minnows . Don't tell me to include ZIM but exclude Kenya .

Okay, ****. Include all opposition they faced, as openers, from 90-99. Waugh wins. Thank u next

 

[harsh.ag]

Just looking at WC stats for any player/player-comparison is BS.

 

[mr_mister]

Just looking at WC stats for any player/player-comparison is BS.

Steven posted their career stats as an opener, their averages were 44 and 46. Sachin comfortably won the strike rate battle. Therefore, to say he was a moderate upgrade was a fair call. This isn't comparing Bradman to Hammond like people are making it seem

 

[mr_mister]

So, to recap, we are comparing players by looking at only one tournament. And we have decided to ignore most iterations. And we are going to ignore all games except when they batted in a particular position. And we are going to ignore all games against half the opponents.

Sounds representative.

2 tournaments, 96 and 99 WC. Aka two of the most ATG filled world cups of all. Sachin did superb in one of them. Waugh did superb in one, and comfortably better than Sachin in the other.

 

[Borges]

Right, right, agreed. Waugh > Sachin.

Can we now please put this debate to bed and move on to the more important topic of hittability of bowlers?

 

[stephen]

Yeah I don't think anyone was making the point that Waugh was better than Tendulkar, only that a case can be made that the gap between the two as openers is not as large as is commonly made out.

I literally said that Tendulkar was a moderate upgrade on a Waugh as an opener. But some people took offence at the idea that if one doesn't argue that Tendulkar was a god and everyone else were terrible that you're a rabid one eyed fanboy.

I mean there are a number of openers that Tendulkar was merely a moderate upgrade over. Hayden, Greenidge, Haynes are three that spring to mind. The main difference between Tendulkar and the rest was his higher strike rate. A couple of points of average is neither here nor there really, but his strike rate was literally around 10 runs or more per hundred balls higher than other openers averaging mid 40s. Obviously I have to exclude players from around 2010 onwards because those batsmen had life so easy by comparison to the 90s greats that their stats aren't really directly comparable.

 

[mr_mister]

Right, right, agreed. Waugh > Sachin.

Can we now please put this debate to bed and move on to the more important topic of hittability of bowlers?

Don't be a smart ass. Im arguing for Waugh to be considered in the same ballpark as Sachin. That's all.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Don't be a smart ass. Im arguing for Waugh to be considered in the same ballpark as Sachin. That's all.

He' really not though. You're having to go to great lengths to selectively pick stats to make it seem like they were close.

 

[Bolo]

2 tournaments, 96 and 99 WC. Aka two of the most ATG filled world cups of all. Sachin did superb in one of them. Waugh did superb in one, and comfortably better than Sachin in the other.

That's two iterations of one tournament, not two separate tournaments eg. Champions trophy + WC.

Got to agree that that was peak odis though. Champions trophy was a bit of a farce at the beginning.

 

[mr_mister]

He' really not though. You're having to go to great lengths to selectively pick stats to make it seem like they were close.

Is it really great lengths? Their record as openers in world cups in the period when both were active. 3 qualifiers, but important ones I feel. Waugh wins that. Take away the opening qualification and it's still neck a neck, though Sachin slightly wins. Im not arguing the excluding minnow case, I shouldn't have mentioned Kenya in any capacity.

I feel we bump up and down players ratings based on their average in a position, the era and their performance in world cups often.

And remember I'm still conceding Sachin was better overall. But I see I ain't convincing anyone so I'll wrap it up

 

[mr_mister]

That's two iterations of one tournament, not two separate tournaments eg. Champions trophy + WC.

Got to agree that that was peak odis though. Champions trophy was a bit of a farce at the beginning.

Agreed. 1999 was the peak of the format and I'm not just saying that coz we won. So much good cricket.

 

[Bolo]

96 and 99 were the only times bats have played modern attacking cricket but with bowlers good enough to reign them in.

I also think 99 was the best cup. But I'm not sure that an rsa or aus fan are the best judges. I'm sure we are giving disproportionate attention to the same games in assessing the cup overall.

 

[marc71178]

Can we please stop this bollocks about Waugh being close to Tendulkar?

Can someone also educate Stephen on the meaning of moderate as he clearly doesn’t understand it.

 

[mr_mister]

96 and 99 were the only times bats have played modern attacking cricket but with bowlers good enough to reign them in.

I also think 99 was the best cup. But I'm not sure that an rsa or aus fan are the best judges. I'm sure we are giving disproportionate attention to the same games in assessing the cup overall.

Yeah, fair. But those two back to back SA/Aus were some of the greatest battles in the sport. To have the two best sides at the business end of a tournament play two games back to back as if it was a standalone series is already crazy.

Then factor in the second game was a tie in ridiculous circumstances. The pendulum across the two games swung from SA to Aus back to SA then Aus so many times I've lost track. It's enough to almost objectively say it was the greatest world cup from an entertainment perspective

 

[Bolo]

Yeah, fair. But those two back to back SA/Aus were some of the greatest battles in the sport. To have the two best sides at the business end of a tournament play two games back to back as if it was a standalone series is already crazy.

Then factor in the second game was a tie in ridiculous circumstances. The pendulum across the two games swung from SA to Aus back to SA then Aus so many times I've lost track. It's enough to almost objectively say it was the greatest world cup from an entertainment perspective

Definitely the most memorable and most competitive stuff i can remember seeing. But I'm basically remembering 99 for those two games + klusener heroics. All RSA games. A fan from another country would have other games/performances stick out.

 

[mr_mister]

Definitely the most memorable and most competitive stuff i can remember seeing. But I'm basically remembering 99 for those two games + klusener heroics. All RSA games. A fan from another country would have other games/performances stick out.

The Ganguly/Dravid partnership and the Pak/Aus group game were memorable too. As was the Zimbabwe victory over India, and the Bangas win over Pak. Some good stuff throughout.

In fact every Australian super six game was interesting, the Jajeda/Robin singh fightback and Neil Johnson's defiant ton. Makes me want to buy a DVD of it