CW decides the greatest test spinner ever. 43 names: Countdown/Rankings thread

[Hicheal Michael]

MacGill averages 30.81 without Warne playing before Warne had retired which, IIRC, was around about the time MacGill injured his knee.

 

[srbhkshk]

To understand this you need to look a bit closer.

When he played with Warne it was usually because the conditions were right for two spinners. A large portion of the time he played as the solo spinner was against India in 03 while Warne was banned. The same India who annihilated Warne and Murali. He averaged 50 vs India. The rest of the time as solo spinner he had good times and bad times but it's not easy to extrapolate from these data sets. The with Warne dataset is obviously too favourable but the without Warne dataset under sells his abilities.

Arguably Australia lost the 05 Ashes because MacGill was sitting on the sidelines while Warne took 40 wickets while Lee, Dizzy and Kasper bowled absolute filthy puss.

MacGill would have been seen as one of the best modern spinners if he'd been born a decade before or after he was, or if he was born English.

Well that does confirm that he is as good as Warne, at least against India.

 

[vcs]

I think Warne was unlucky to come up against ATG batting performances a lot when he faced India.

The guy was a magician. The fact that he destroyed everyone else apart from India makes me love him even more.

 

[mr_mister]

#10th. Richie Benaud, 293 points

Featured on 27 of 35 lists
Highest finish: 3rd (1 time)
Ranking within spin discipline: 5th of 16 (Leg Break Googly)
Test WPM ranking: 24th of 43 (3.97)


One of the greatest all-rounders, captains and commentators. Also one of the best spinners ever and considered by CW to be the 5th best leggie to grace the game. Obviously a great cricket analyst and deep thinker, his bowling was said to contain a lot of 'baits and traps'. Benaud had an amazing away average of 24 and with the help of conditions in Asia took 71 wickets there from 12 tests @ 19. He averaged 30 at home. Against Sobers, Weekes, Worrell et all he averaged 26.9, very similar to his overall test bowling average of 27.04. Very respectable numbers for a leggie. He only gave away 2.10 runs an over.

He played a decent chunk of his tests against England, 27 in fact. He did pretty well against them at home but in England he averaged 39 from 12 tests with only 25 wickets, the one blight on his record.

He retired with the most test wickets for Australia with 248. Only 2 aussie spinners have surpassed this number in the next half century of cricket, one being Nathan Lyon not too long ago. Richie had a slow start to his career, but from 1956 to 1959 he took 124 wickets from 24 tests @ just 21. A tremendous peak for a spinner.

 

[jimmy101]

Australia's greatest ever cricketer.

 

[Migara]

But on the field his reputation was a grand one.

There is an anecdote that he ordering grass of the pitch to be removed from the pitch, midway in the game. The side playing them was a pre-test era Sri Lanka. I'll try to dig the news.

 

[Migara]

No idea. Migara/ someone who has seen a lot of Lanka, any thoughts?

Don't think he would have got the batsmen easy to bowl at in 2000s. There is definite waning of the ability to play spin. Unlike in 2000s, where guys who were not good against spin stuck it out, by grinding, none of the recent batsmen tend to do it.

 

[Migara]

I feel like you've got that backwards. Ashwin seems to have more tools to be effective away than Herath. And given that the difference in spin-friendliness of SL pitches and away pitches are probably even more pronounced than those of India's then you'd expect Herath to have a more pronounced difference in effectiveness home and away.

Ashwin gives it a massive rip. So he can beat batsmen on both edges anywhere in the world. Herath cannot do it unless the pitch takes spin.

 

[Starfighter]

There is definite waning of the ability to play spin. Unlike in 2000s, where guys who were not good against spin stuck it out, by grinding, none of the recent batsmen tend to do it.

That's funny, I was told in another thread that standards in cricket were increasing.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Ashwin gives it a massive rip. So he can beat batsmen on both edges anywhere in the world. Herath cannot do it unless the pitch takes spin.

Yes that's what I'm saying

 

[Migara]

Regardless of the pace he bowls, he definitely bowls with a lot more overspin than this generation's Asian spinners.

Overspin is counter productive on Asian pitches (ball stops on the pitch), where batsmen camp on back foot. Gives more time to adjust. Side spinning balls, when land on the shiny side, keeps low, and hurries through without stopping on the pitch like the ones that spin. And that is usually the end when the batsman is on backfoot.

 

[Migara]

That's funny, I was told in another thread that standards in cricket were increasing.

Playing of pace bowling however has improved. Don't thinh a West Indian quartet will intimidate the **** out of many teams like it used to be.

 

[Starfighter]

Playing of pace bowling however has improved. Don't thinh a West Indian quartet will intimidate the **** out of many teams like it used to be.

I'd think helmets and non-irregularly bouncing pitches might have a bit to do with that though. Players are certainly much more fearless than they used to be.

 

[trundler]

I'm not sure how techniques of modern batsmen would hold up on pitches with variable bounce. Abysmally, going by the recent Wi v SL series.

 

[Borges]

I'm not sure how techniques of modern batsmen would hold up on pitches with variable bounce. Abysmally, going by the recent Wi v SL series.

Techniques of modern batsmen would have been different if they had to play all the time on pitches with variable bounce, uncovered pitches, poor bats, no helmets etc. etc. etc.

Techniques of older batsmen would have been different if they had to play all the time against modern bowlers, current levels of fielding, better protective gear, DRS etc. etc.

Comparing different eras in cricket and trying to find a common denominator between them is a thoroughly pointless exercise. .

 

[vcs]

Is there any batting technique at all that can hold up against variable bounce? It's just a lottery.

 

[R!TTER]

Techniques of modern batsmen would have been different if they had to play all the time on pitches with variable bounce, uncovered pitches, poor bats, no helmets etc. etc. etc.

Techniques of older batsmen would have been different if they had to play all the time against modern bowlers, current levels of fielding, better protective gear, DRS etc. etc.

Comparing different eras in cricket and trying to find a common denominator between them is a thoroughly pointless exercise. .

Yes so much so that it should be banned, fretting over the bygones is utterly

 

[trundler]

No such thing as pointless on a forum dedicated to cricket.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Is there any batting technique at all that can hold up against variable bounce? It's just a lottery.

yes, to an extent. Avoiding playing too much off the back foot for starters. But when it comes to balls that shoot really low there's not a whole lot you can do

 

[Borges]

Is there any batting technique at all that can hold up against variable bounce? It's just a lottery.

Barrington and Gavaskar did play very well on pitches with variable bounce, It is a complete lottery only when the bounce is both variable and vicious (very fast).