CW decides the greatest test spinner ever. 43 names: Countdown/Rankings thread

[the big bambino]

India has produced some great players who became cranks like Sunny and Bish. can't stand the former but reckon Bedi's a hoot. Didn't he give Buchanan a serve while handing him an award? So funny.

 

[Engle]

Qadir was to spin bowling what Thommo was to fast bowling and Trumper was to batting. Contributors to the game - not to the mathematicians/statisticians.

 

[TheJediBrah]

His home run has been ridiculous, while he has been very ineffective away. I can see why Ashwin and Jadeja have records like this, but I'm not so sure with Herath.

I feel like you've got that backwards. Ashwin seems to have more tools to be effective away than Herath. And given that the difference in spin-friendliness of SL pitches and away pitches are probably even more pronounced than those of India's then you'd expect Herath to have a more pronounced difference in effectiveness home and away.

 

[stephen]

MacGill spent half his tests as the solo spinner playing against India at home behind the worst pace attacks Australia put out during our golden era. Half of the rest of his tests as least spinner he was at the end of his career and had carpal tunnel syndrome and retired soon after.

It's possibly fair to say MacGill's average of 29 would have been higher if he was given more tests since he disproportionately played more tests at the SCG but that's disingenuous since he only had 7 tests there. And he out bowled Warne on numerous occasions.

My feeling is that he'd have taken around 550 wickets at 32 if not for Warne. Which puts him as one of the best ever and probably around 4th or 5th in modern times, which is phenomenal.

Rankings of spinners is much more subjective than fast bowlers. One has to take into account so many more factors than when looking at pacers.

 

[TheJediBrah]

My feeling is that he'd have taken around 550 wickets at 32 if not for Warne.

So you must think he'd have spent significant time out of the side either injured or dropped. Because if he'd played any significant proportion of the time during which he was active at International standard then he'd have exceeded 550 wickets comfortably.

 

[harsh.ag]

Rajinder Goel, guys

 

[Borges]

McGill was a somewhat better version of Imran Tahir. He was quite lucky that he didn't play too many games.
Spin bowlers who just couldn't land them right, no matter how long they play, don't last very long in test cricket.
They just look great for a while, when people haven't faced them earlier, till the novelty wears of.

 

[jimmy101]

McGill was a somewhat better version of Imran Tahir. He was quite lucky that he didn't play too many games.
Spin bowlers who just couldn't land them right, no matter how long they play, don't last very long in test cricket.
They just look great for a while, when people haven't faced them earlier, till the novelty wears of.

Not sure if Stuart would agree with you there.

 

[Borges]

I meant lucky in the sense that he wouldn't have been so overrated if he did play long enough.
The underrated Lyon is a better bowler than McGill.

 

[marc71178]

McGill in tests with Warne - average 22.1
McGill in tests wthout Warne - average 33.5

Saying that he would have a minimum 600 and possibly more wickets basically implies that he was as good as Warne - I don't think that's correct.

I have the theory that his success when playing as second spinner was because the batsmen were trying to see off Warne and relaxed against him hence he took more wickets. Does seem to be backed up by the results.

 

[Bolo]

I feel like you've got that backwards. Ashwin seems to have more tools to be effective away than Herath. And given that the difference in spin-friendliness of SL pitches and away pitches are probably even more pronounced than those of India's then you'd expect Herath to have a more pronounced difference in effectiveness home and away.

Ashwin is pretty standard. Just about every spinner from the SC is some version of it, he's just a classical version.

Ashwin doesn't rip the ball. He pushes it in without too much flight. Lack of effort means he's hard to read out the hand and it coming on leaves little time to react. If there is a bunch of turn on offer this is really dangerous but if the pitch isn't turning he doesn't get the ball moving, which turns him into a holding bowler. Almost everyone from the SC is a variant of this, just with added tricks. I'm sure Herath is this away, but idk at home. Something about the slowness of the pitch confuses me. I'm not sure how the bats are failing to read.

Most of the best spinners from row go hard enough to spin anywhere. Good players of spin should know what the ball is doing, but small variations mean more when the ball is doing something.

Lyon is interesting. Can't recall someone as focused on movement in the air. He's basically an Asian spinner. How he's done so well in AUS is beyond me. Bordem
should explain an average that good.

 

[cnerd123]

Ashwin gets a lot of revs on the ball and turns it on flat pitches. Lack of spin isn't his problem. When the pitch is flat he's unable to bowl a standard line and length and build pressure. He's constantly trying out variations and bowling I'm ODI mode which means constantly leaking singles

 

[Red]

McGill was a somewhat better version of Imran Tahir. He was quite lucky that he didn't play too many games.
Spin bowlers who just couldn't land them right, no matter how long they play, don't last very long in test cricket.
They just look great for a while, when people haven't faced them earlier, till the novelty wears of.

This is silly. Tahir skids them thru. MacGill ripped the hell out of it. It was actually MacGill's erratic-ness that made him such a wicket taker.

In spite of all the post from anti-MacGill advocates, MacGill was an out and out wicket taker, and match winner. In the entire history of test cricket, the only spinner with more WPM are Murali, Grimmett, Blythe, Peel and Warne.

 

[Daemon]

Ashwin is pretty standard. Just about every spinner from the SC is some version of it, he's just a classical version.

Ashwin doesn't rip the ball. He pushes it in without too much flight. Lack of effort means he's hard to read out the hand and it coming on leaves little time to react. If there is a bunch of turn on offer this is really dangerous but if the pitch isn't turning he doesn't get the ball moving, which turns him into a holding bowler. Almost everyone from the SC is a variant of this, just with added tricks. I'm sure Herath is this away, but idk at home. Something about the slowness of the pitch confuses me. I'm not sure how the bats are failing to read.

Most of the best spinners from row go hard enough to spin anywhere. Good players of spin should know what the ball is doing, but small variations mean more when the ball is doing something.

Lyon is interesting. Can't recall someone as focused on movement in the air. He's basically an Asian spinner. How he's done so well in AUS is beyond me. Bordem
should explain an average that good.

Lyon's not a typical Asian spinner at all? Much slower through the air and relies on overspin and bounce.

 

[the big bambino]

Awta. Plus Ashwin can rip 'em. Also agree with Red Hill that MacGill's erratic style was a reason he got so many wickets. The batsmen couldn't help but attack him as he bowled a lot of wonky stuff inviting aggression. Yet that also improved his likelihood of taking a wicket from a rash shot on top of getting a batsman out from one of his many blinders.

 

[mr_mister]

11th. Lance Gibbs, 270 points

Featured on 32 of 35 lists
Highest finish: 6th (1 time)
Ranking within spin discipline: 4th of 13 (Right Arm Offbreak)
Test WPM ranking: 27th of 43 (3.91)


Gibbs finishes as the best West Indian spinner by a large amount. He featured on all but 3 lists, which is actually a bit better than a lot of those above him. A lot of people felt obliged to at least place him low on their list, knowing they couldn't leave him off. He ranks in as the 4th greatest offie.

He was the first spinner to take 300 test wickets and finished with 309 of them from 79 tests. He had an unusual action and was extremely economic, leaking a little less than 2 runs per over. He was known for bowling marathon spells like Valentine and Ramadhin and his test best of 8/38 came from 53 overs(with 37 maidens). An expert at wearing a batsman's patience down with his accuracy and concentration. Apparently his spinning finger was eternally sore.

He went to town in the subcontinent, averaging 23 in India and 26 in Pakistan from 9 and 5 tests respectively. Also he came onto the test scene with a bang and took on Ramadhin and Valentine's role head on. He took 133 wickets @ 22 from his first 30 tests. He couldn't maintain that average forever and a couple of poor series here and there( averaged 57 from 5 tests against NZ) ended up pushing his career average closer to 30. His away and home averages were very similar, hovering around 29.

His career came to a close in 1975, right before West Indian cricket truly took off. They soon became the best side in the world with their dominant pace attack. He actually played in the first world cup, but didn't feature in the final. The Windies opted for a 4 pronged pace attack in that final which would later become the standard, so perhaps a bit of a changing of the guard took place there.

 

[jimmy101]

Cool picture. If Gibbs was holding a gun that would be a gangsta rap album cover.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Lyon's not a typical Asian spinner at all? Much slower through the air and relies on overspin and bounce.

This is absolutely correct, however I think a big factor of his tours last year was that he changed his style a bit to suit the Asian pitches. Basically more side-spin, less over-spin.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Lyon may be slow through the air for an Asian spinner but he’s always bowled darts compared to most Aussie spinners. I thought however that he increased his speed as well last years India tour.

 

[Daemon]

This is absolutely correct, however I think a big factor of his tours last year was that he changed his style a bit to suit the Asian pitches. Basically more side-spin, less over-spin.

Yep. All to do with that UAE preparatory camp imo.

Also the threat of SOK being better than him made him step up his game.