*Official* India in South Africa

[Turbinator]

ITSTL - are you saying that they could actually field a much better team from who they have available, but don't? If so, would you care to elaborate?

Well first and foremost, it is not marketed well enough here. We have the basic structure, we have the talent to do better. However, due to the fact that it is not a mainstream sport here, there is a lot of politics even at the grassroots level. In fact, especially at the grassroots level. I've seen a lot of times talent has gone to waste because of the simple fact that many club teams don't have a proper selection structure in place. For example, many clubs in the league are family owned/managed. And this encourages the team to be composed of primarily the people in the family and/or their friends. There is no proper platform for selection, one where you can prove yourself and be rewarded for it. Not all clubs are designed this way, but many are, and it's discouraging. I know myself, I have gotten an extended duration in the team despite a string of poor performances mainly because I was good friends with the captain of the team. All this while there were many deserving players waiting for their chance. This is just one of the issues. I could talk all day about why cricket in North America will not succeed and get into the details, but to summarize, there are a lot of problems at present. Especially with the lack of government funding and proper structure, there is no incentive for clubs to push forth the deserving players and nurture their talents. This is the case because of the simple fact that a lot of the money used to run the clubs is coming out of their pockets with minimum government support.

Apart from this, as I said before, it is not a mainstream sport. In other words, kids here are not grown up with the awareness of the sport, about the existence of the sport and/or the opportunities. And the fact that 75 percent or more of the Canadian players come from one league in Toronto, only talent in Toronto is being recognized. Outside of Toronto and Vancouver (two cities with the highest minority population), not many know of cricket's existence. As I said, I could go on and on, but all in all there is a big issue at hand. And until this is resolved, and cricket is properly marketed and set up in other areas outside of Toronto, the team will not improve. I know a lot of players who have played for Pakistan at the under 19 level, and those that have played in the Ranji trophy, but their talents are not utilized because of the simple fact that the current set up is discouraging and does not do enough to provide talented players with the appropriate opportunities.

 

[Prince EWS]

Well first and foremost, it is not marketed well enough here. We have the basic structure, we have the talent to do better. However, due to the fact that it is not a mainstream sport here, there is a lot of politics even at the grassroots level. In fact, especially at the grassroots level. I've seen a lot of times talent has gone to waste because of the simple fact that many club teams don't have a proper selection structure in place. For example, many clubs in the league are family owned/managed. And this encourages the team to be composed of primarily the people in the family and/or their friends. There is no proper platform for selection, one where you can prove yourself and be rewarded for it. Not all clubs are designed this way, but many are, and it's discouraging. I know myself, I have gotten an extended duration in the team despite a string of poor performances mainly because I was good friends with the captain of the team. All this while there were many deserving players waiting for their chance. This is just one of the issues. I could talk all day about why cricket in North America will not succeed and get into the details, but to summarize, there are a lot of problems at present. Especially with the lack of government funding and proper structure, there is no incentive for clubs to push forth the deserving players and nurture their talents. This is the case because of the simple fact that a lot of the money used to run the clubs is coming out of their pockets with minimum government support.

Apart from this, as I said before, it is not a mainstream sport. In other words, kids here are not grown up with the awareness of the sport, about the existence of the sport and/or the opportunities. And the fact that 75 percent or more of the Canadian players come from one league in Toronto, only talent in Toronto is being recognized. Outside of Toronto and Vancouver (two cities with the highest minority population), not many know of cricket's existence. As I said, I could go on and on, but all in all there is a big issue at hand. And until this is resolved, and cricket is properly marketed and set up in other areas outside of Toronto, the team will not improve. I know a lot of players who have played for Pakistan at the under 19 level, and those that have played in the Ranji trophy, but their talents are not utilized because of the simple fact that the current set up is discouraging and does not do enough to provide talented players with the appropriate opportunities.

Fair enough. I fully understand that the obvious lack of mainstream interest means it will never attract kids to the game to begin with and will hence struggle to succeed, but I was interested in why you thought the national team didn't reflect the best eleven cricketers that are actually playing and available. I think I got an answer in the middle of that somewhere relating to the lack of a proper divisional system. Thanks.

 

[Turbinator]

Fair enough. I fully understand that the obvious lack of mainstream interest means it will never attract kids to the game to begin with and will hence struggle to succeed, but I was interested in why you thought the national team didn't reflect the best eleven cricketers that are actually playing and available. I think I got an answer in the middle of that somewhere relating to the lack of a proper divisional system. Thanks.

This is a really good article, I think it will do better in explaining.

Will Canada’s best team make it to the World Cup? (CricInfo) Canada Cricket Online

There was another article on Cricinfo as well recently that touches on the issue, I will try and find it.

 

[Faisal1985]

Must say congrads to India. After the way their series started what a come back it has been. Especially I think Indians should thank Laxman and Zaheer for bringing them back in to the series.

 

[kingjulian]

I think South Africa played better kallisball across the series by a fair way, tbh, but I think this is a great example of why India are #1 - they get it done. South Africa are just too inconsistent from match to match and they struggle to turns 'winning' draws into results, especially away from home when they aren't playing on 300 par wickets. If you're going to beat India you usually have to completely outplay them, and if they get on top at home they'll put you away.

And after silentstriker spent so much of India's first innings championing the South African attack because of Steyn and pointing out that it was why he thought they had a better attack than England, I'll point out that the second innings is precisely why I think the opposite. If Steyn is negotiated or has an unlucky day, South Africa are ****ed. England haven't proven much of anything yet but their attack has the basis to be a lot more consistent and Swann's shown he can bowl teams to victory when England are in good positions.

At similar stage in their careers (after 30 tests) - Harbhajan Singh had a better record than Swann. Saqlain had an even better record. (I didn't check on these, i'm going by memory and how Harbhajan and Saqlain were feared). We know how these bowlers get attacked from pillar to post on this forum these days. Even Ajantha Mendis was unplayable for a while. Spinners usually get found out after the first 20 or so tests, and it is how they respond after that that is more important. I'm trying to say that getting a bowler of Swann's quality is not the impossible task you are making it out to be. He is no Warne or Murali and bowlers like Imran Tahir etc may help South Africa get there. But a bowler like Steyn is something England have not had for over 50 years and India have never had.

Steyn, Morkel, Tsotsobe and Kallis >>>>> Anderson, Bresnan, Broad, Tremlett.

Swann does not do enough to offset that inequality. You are comparing SA's bowling performance against the most inform batting line up in the last 4 years with Englands performance against a side in terminal decline. Apples and Oranges i think.

I would consider England tour of SA a better analysis. SA were in more match winning positions than England in that series. A huge dose of luck played a part in England drawing that series. SA bowlers outperformed English bowlers by quite a margin if you take a look at runs per wicket for each bowling attack in that series.

 

[Turbinator]

Fair enough. I fully understand that the obvious lack of mainstream interest means it will never attract kids to the game to begin with and will hence struggle to succeed, but I was interested in why you thought the national team didn't reflect the best eleven cricketers that are actually playing and available. I think I got an answer in the middle of that somewhere relating to the lack of a proper divisional system. Thanks.

This is a really good article, I think it will do better in explaining.

Will Canada’s best team make it to the World Cup? (CricInfo) Canada Cricket Online

There was another article on Cricinfo as well recently that touches on the issue, I will try and find it.

Here's the article on Davison pulling out of the WC and why. It touches on the issue as well. But keep in mind this is not just a problem at the higher levels, but also the grassroot levels. And the same goes for the cricket administration in the US.

Davison's 'withdrawal' undermines Canada's WC plans | Cricket News | ICC Cricket World Cup 2011 | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Prince EWS]

At similar stage in their careers (after 30 tests) - Harbhajan Singh had a better record than Swann. Saqlain had an even better record. (I didn't check on these, i'm going by memory and how Harbhajan and Saqlain were feared). We know how these bowlers get attacked from pillar to post on this forum these days. Even Ajantha Mendis was unplayable for a while. Spinners usually get found out after the first 20 or so tests, and it is how they respond after that that is more important. I'm trying to say that getting a bowler of Swann's quality is not the impossible task you are making it out to be. He is no Warne or Murali and bowlers like Imran Tahir etc may help South Africa get there. But a bowler like Steyn is something England have not had for over 50 years and India have never had.

Steyn, Morkel, Tsotsobe and Kallis >>>>> Anderson, Bresnan, Broad, Tremlett.

Swann does not do enough to offset that inequality. You are comparing SA's bowling performance against the most inform batting line up in the last 4 years with Englands performance against a side in terminal decline. Apples and Oranges i think.

I would consider England tour of SA a better analysis. SA were in more match winning positions than England in that series. A huge dose of luck played a part in England drawing that series. SA bowlers outperformed English bowlers by quite a margin if you take a look at runs per wicket for each bowling attack in that series.

I've had this debate over about 40 pages in another thread so I'm not going to do it again properly here, but I don't think judging an England attack which didn't feature Chris Tremlett, and featured Anderson and Broad before they'd improved to the standard they bowl now, is in any way a good reflection of anything.

England have proved little; I've said that before. Quoting past results means nothing to me because my predictions about England are not based on the past results of the team as a whole, but what I think their attack is capable of and likely to do in its current state, now that key members have improved and they've eliminated weaknesses in their team. If they'd decimated Australia 5-0 but carried Steve Finn or Monty Panesar, I wouldn't be saying what I am.

South Africa not winning that series was actually a perfect example of what I was saying in that first paragraph of the post you quoted btw.

 

[Faisal1985]

This is a really good article, I think it will do better in explaining.

Will Canada’s best team make it to the World Cup? (CricInfo) Canada Cricket Online

There was another article on Cricinfo as well recently that touches on the issue, I will try and find it.

I play for a club in Montreal, Canada. Here at the club level their is a massive revolt going on against CC. All the local bodies which run club leagues have been so corrupt in recent times that clubs have broken away from the leagues and created their on unions. Only last year in Ontario and in Quebec OCL and QCF were broken up and top teams have created organizations such as MCA (Montreal Cricket Association) or OCA ...CCA has been extremely corrupt in player selection. Its all about contacts and favoritism here.
This is only the start, once some of the best players come out of the CC umbrella they will have even worse team for Canada....its not looking pretty at all.

 

[Turbinator]

I play for a club in Montreal, Canada. Here at the club level their is a massive revolt going on against CC. All the local bodies which run club leagues have been so corrupt in recent times that clubs have broken away from the leagues and created their on unions. Only last year in Ontario and in Quebec OCL and QCF were broken up and top teams have created organizations such as MCA (Montreal Cricket Association) or OCA ...CCA has been extremely corrupt in player selection. Its all about contacts and favoritism here.
This is only the start, once some of the best players come out of the CC umbrella they will have even worse team for Canada....its not looking pretty at all.

Yes it really isn't. But this sort of a situation, I feel, is expected when a sport is not mainstream in the country and does not receive the proper recognition and government support. There is bound to be vested interests.

 

[vcs]

Yeah, not the present Dravid who looks terrible until he bats himself in but the Dravid of 96-07.Only just behind Sanga and Tresco in the aesthetic stakes for me.

Ugh, Trescothick was ****ing ugly. Both facially and batting-wise. The original left-handed club-wielder, a la Smith and Hayden.

 

[vcs]

Sachin will be more watchable batting for a draw than Laxman.

But Laxman arguably overall.

Laxman is easily the most watchable Indian batsman for me. Sachin version 1 (pre 2003) not far behind at all though.

 

[Faisal1985]

Yes it really isn't. But this sort of a situation, I feel, is expected when a sport is not mainstream in the country and does not receive the proper recognition and government support. There is bound to be vested interests.

True...but i guess it becomes the chicken or egg argument...if CC behaved and picked the best team and showed a couple of upsets in big tournaments and made news in Canada, things could be different.....or the perception and public opinion and interest may have been more favorable. As it stands right now, the whole system is crumbling and after some of the long time players of Canada leave in another 3-5 years or even earlier new and good players will not be their.....

 

[Jono]

u mad it's my off day.

Went back to work I see

 

[kingjulian]

I've had this debate over about 40 pages in another thread so I'm not going to do it again properly here, but I don't think judging an England attack which didn't feature Chris Tremlett, and featured Anderson and Broad before they'd improved to the standard they bowl now, is in any way a good reflection of anything.

England have proved little; I've said that before. Quoting past results means nothing to me because the predictions about England are not based on the past results of the team as a whole, but what I think their attack is capable of and likely to do in its current state, now that key members have improved and they've eliminated weaknesses in their team. If they'd decimated Australia 5-0 but carried Steve Finn or Monty Panesar, I wouldn't be saying what I am.

South Africa not winning that series was actually a perfect example of what I was saying in that first paragraph of the post you quoted btw.

You posted something in this thread that is easily debatable and it flies in the face of the best performing bowling unit in the last two years, so i argued the other side of it. My apologies for not reading the other 40 pages.

Anyway...we can only wait and see. Let's dig this up in 2012 and see how things are. For what it's worth i don't think England's bowling attack strikes the same kind of fear in opposition batsmen's mind as the South African one does. But being threatening and being effective or two different things, and you may have a point on that count...but i think South Africa can improve on their weakness (Harris) far more easily than England can get their other group of fast bowlers to operate at the level Steyn and Morkel have been operating for the last few years. So i disagree on the "potential" argument of yours as well. So let's agree to disagree.

 

[vcs]

PL Harris 30 19 29 0 0.96

On a fifth day track, with about a million fielders surrounding the bat. Was so happy when he was denied that plumb LBW of Dravid.

 

[Teja.]

Evermind, 0rion and r3ealist should listen to CEE-LOO green more imo.

1-1.

 

[Jono]

Where did taipan go?

 

[Prince EWS]

You posted something in this thread that is easily debatable and it flies in the face of the best performing bowling unit in the last two years, so i argued the other side of it. My apologies for not reading the other 40 pages.

It was actually another thread. I had a 40-page debate on it in the thread (originally) about a Darren Gough quote. I wasn't having a go at you for arguing it though; I was just pointing out why I wasn't going to keep replying.

Anyway...we can only wait and see. Let's dig this up in 2012 and see how things are. For what it's worth i don't think England's bowling attack strikes the same kind of fear in opposition batsmen's mind as the South African one does. But being threatening and being effective or two different things, and you may have a point on that count...but i think South Africa can improve on their weakness (Harris) far more easily than England can get their other group of fast bowlers to operate at the level Steyn and Morkel have been operating for the last few years. So i disagree on the "potential" argument of yours as well. So let's agree to disagree.

 

[Prince EWS]

Evermind, 0rion and r3ealist should listen to CEE-LOO green more imo.

1-1.

Haha, I like 0RI0N. Don't take him too seriously.

 

[shankar]

Went back to work I see

Come on. Be patient man. You need some time to think up those awesome abbreviations.