Where does Kallis rate as a batsman alone?

[Blaze 18]

Ummmmmm.... Shoaib Akhtar's genital warts keep him out of Pakistan's World Twenty 20 squad - Telegraph

I know that he had genital warts, but how is it relevant to what Xuhaib posted ?

 

[Smudge]

Sigh. CC becoming a humour-free zone again - time for me to bugger off back to OT until the stats freaks disappear back to their Excel files.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Sigh. CC becoming a humour-free zone again - time for me to bugger off back to OT until the stats freaks disappear back to their Excel files.

I don't get it. What does humour have to do with the monotonous, tedious, nay - suicide inducing - batting of Jacques Kallis. I bet he's never watched a Carry On film in his life.

 

[morgieb]

Reckon he'd make the top 20 of my batsmen. His real value as a cricketer is under-stated imo - not only is he one of the top 3 bats currently, he can bowl pretty competently and he's an amazing slipper.

 

[weldone]

Among 4 best South African batsmen of all-time along with Barry Richards, Graeme Pollock and Dudley Nourse.

Among 7 best batsmen of the last 20 years along with Tendulkar, Lara, Steve Waugh, Ponting, Sehwag and Dravid.

Won't make my top 15 batsmen of all-time now. But might just sneak in my top 25.

 

[0RI0N]

How is this relevant, mate ?

go to this website
ineedasenseofhumour.com
ITT: haters (from a particular country) umadkat at Kallis the Great batsman.

 

[Jono]

He's horrendously underappreciated in general, but in particular I've always felt he doesn't get enough credit for mastering South African conditions. No one ever scores runs in South Africa, but Kallis does it without thinking. Check it out: Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Haha, I just went through this with Ginger Furball and Prince in the official SA thread.

That record makes him the best SA batsman. But considering that Ponting and Sachin in particular (can't remember Lara's record in SA) ONLY face SA bowlers when they play in SA, it's natural their record will be worse off.

If Ponting and Sachin faced WI, NZ and SL bowlers on SA pitches they'd have similar records to Kallis. In fact, even though Ponting never faced Donald, he already averages huge in SA. And Sachin's record in SA considering he faces a top quality bowling outfit every tour is very good.

 

[Bun]

He's horrendously underappreciated in general, but in particular I've always felt he doesn't get enough credit for mastering South African conditions. No one ever scores runs in South Africa, but Kallis does it without thinking. Check it out: Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Others have to do the scoring against SA in SA, Kallis had the advantage of facing lesser attacks. Against good attacks, his record is mediocre.

 

[Uppercut]

Haha, I just went through this with Ginger Furball and Prince in the official SA thread.

That record makes him the best SA batsman. But considering that Ponting and Sachin in particular (can't remember Lara's record in SA) ONLY face SA bowlers when they play in SA, it's natural their record will be worse off.

Yeah, that's a definite qualification to the link I posted, but his record is so good that the point still stands. Kallis has sustained for fifteen years a level of batting that pretty much no other player has even been able to match over five or six matches.

If Ponting and Sachin faced WI, NZ and SL bowlers on SA pitches they'd have similar records to Kallis. In fact, even though Ponting never faced Donald, he already averages huge in SA. And Sachin's record in SA considering he faces a top quality bowling outfit every tour is very good.

This is where you lose me. You're comparing Kallis's 6,000 runs @ 58 in by far the world's most difficult country to bat in to the theoretical runs you reckon Tendulkar or Ponting might have scored if they'd played for SA there. Considering that their career averages against by and large the same world attacks on much flatter pitches are both lower than Kallis's record in SA, on what grounds can you possibly make such a claim?

Besides, it reduces an argument to absurdity when you say things like this. Turning Ponting or Tendulkar South African changes everything, and will inevitably lead to someone saying "... but if Kallis was Indian/Australian/Mormon". You can only look at what players did, not what you think they would have done in a different era/country/helmet.

 

[Uppercut]

Among my seven ATG bats post 1990:

Tendulkar,Lara,Ponting,Dravid,Kallis,Sanga,Sehwag

The absence of Waugh absolutely disgusts me- I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was an oversight .

 

[vcs]

Among my seven ATG bats post 1990:

Tendulkar,Lara,Ponting,Dravid,Kallis,Sanga,Sehwag

Steve Waugh is better than Sanga/Sehwag as things currently stand.

 

[Uppercut]

I'd honestly rather have Waugh than any of them tbh, except Tendulkar.

 

[vcs]

Yeah, that's a definite qualification to the link I posted, but his record is so good that the point still stands. Kallis has sustained for fifteen years a level of batting that pretty much no other player has even been able to match over five or six matches.



This is where you lose me. You're comparing Kallis's 6,000 runs @ 58 in by far the world's most difficult country to bat in to the theoretical runs you reckon Tendulkar or Ponting might have scored if they'd played for SA there. Considering that their career averages against by and large the same world attacks on much flatter pitches are both lower than Kallis's record in SA, on what grounds can you possibly make such a claim?

Besides, it reduces an argument to absurdity when you say things like this. Turning Ponting or Tendulkar South African changes everything, and will inevitably lead to someone saying "... but if Kallis was Indian/Australian/Mormon". You can only look at what players did, not what you think they would have done in a different era/country/helmet.

Both Tendulkar and Ponting average close to 60 at home, don't they? I think they would have adjusted to keep a 55+ home average if they had grown up on SA pitches, looking at their technique. It's not a far-fetched claim IMO.

 

[vcs]

I'd honestly rather have Waugh than any of them tbh, except Tendulkar.

Above Lara, no. Between Waugh and Ponting, it's tough, but I'd take Ponting.

 

[Uppercut]

Both Tendulkar and Ponting average close to 60 at home, don't they? I think they would have adjusted to keep a 55+ home average if they had grown up on SA pitches, looking at their technique. It's not a far-fetched claim IMO.

Yeah, but you're not taking into account that if Ponting was South African he also would have been a lot uglier, and that surely would have had some impact on his confidence levels, affecting his ability to bat.

It's a ridiculous argument to even try to have.

 

[Goughy]

I'd honestly rather have Waugh than any of them tbh, except Tendulkar.

Id take Waugh but I wouldnt argue if people took Lara or Tendulkar. Being in the discussion is enough, I dont think we have to crown a definitive 'winner'

Out of interest. using the 'Bradman Scale'- Who has the most runs over any period of 52 consecutive Tests in their career and the best average? I dont think it will prove anything, rather just be interesting to see the answer.

 

[centurymaker]

I'd honestly rather have Waugh than any of them tbh, except Tendulkar.

+1
What a player he turned into after his initial struggle.

 

[vcs]

Yeah, but you're not taking into account that if Ponting was South African he also would have been a lot uglier, and that surely would have had some impact on his confidence levels, affecting his ability to bat.

It's a ridiculous argument to even try to have.

I don't see your point... if you're saying Kallis's home record being so much better than his peers is a big plus point, surely it must be the same for Lara? (can't be bothered to check the exact figures). Ponting and Tendulkar have had some great batsmen playing alongside them so they don't have such a big advantage there.

 

[centurymaker]

Id take Waugh but I wouldnt argue if people took Lara or Tendulkar. Being in the discussion is enough, I dont think we have to crown a definitive 'winner'

Out of interest. using the 'Bradman Scale'- Who has the most runs over any period of 52 consecutive Tests in their career and the best average? I dont think it will prove anything, rather just be interesting to see the answer.

Definitely Ponting. He had a greater peak than any other modern day batsman.

 

[Uppercut]

I don't see your point... if you're saying Kallis's home record being so much better than his peers is a big plus point, surely it must be the same for Lara? (can't be bothered to check the exact figures). Ponting and Tendulkar have had some great batsmen playing alongside them so they don't have such a big advantage there.

Stop being deliberately obtuse, you watch enough cricket to know that batting in South Africa is much more difficult than batting in India or Australia. The fact that games there always involve South Africa makes it impossible to gauge the effect statistically, but where he plays his home cricket is a big disadvantage for Kallis, and his sheer, unmatched dominance there is pretty impressive.