Where does Kallis rate as a batsman alone?

[vcs]

You may have missed my post where I referred to the "top 5 attacks" during Kallis' and Ponting's career. In order, they are: Australia, S.Africa, SL, England and Pakistan. So no, I didn't just throw them in there.

OK I missed that. I don't agree with it though, I think India have had a better attack than SL in SA conditions during Kallis's career.

 

[centurymaker]

The touring batsmen didn't face the "best" bowling attack(Australia) in SA. The excuse is that Australia at home could well be his bogey team like SA is for Sachin and India away for Ponting. He did really well against the Ashes winning England team in their peak in 2004 and rest of all the good attacks that visited SA since 1999, except Australia. I noticed he doesn't have great record against SL either but hardly played them since he reached his peak. SA conditions make the lesser bowlers look like seasoned veterans.. and we saw how useful Sreesanth was in SA.

The SA attack almost always had one or two world class bowlers and two duds in their attack. Even the current attack with awesome Dale Steyn isn't rated to be as good as England by many here because of the lack of good 3rd and 4th bowlers. Just to undermine Kallis's awesome record, people are now trying to over-rate SA bowlers here.

SA don't dish out bowler friendly pitches against sides like let's say england or australia as often as against India, because these pitches are more likely to back-fire against aus/eng etc.

 

[Ikki]

I haven't checked, maybe they did. I don't recall SL doing that greatly in SA either. Replacing SL with India though his record becomes averaging 52 at home against the 'top' attacks. Although, it's somewhat slanted as he averages 90s against India LOL.

 

[centurymaker]

I haven't checked, maybe they did. I don't recall SL doing that greatly in SA either. Replacing SL with India though his record becomes averaging 52 at home against the 'top' attacks. Although, it's somewhat slanted as he averages 90s against India LOL.

Thats primarily because of his last series in which he scored close to 500 runs and was dismissed only 3 times.
India do have a 'top attack' don't they?

 

[jeevan]

Wrt his record playing India: Kallis had a fantastic series in the one just concluded. But excepting that one, he was more of a very good supporting act as a batsman than the main show (in particular once each to phenomenal performances by Amla and AbdV respectively).

Of course this series counts for a lot in assessing Kallis (as it should in assessing SRT, Laxman & Gambhir) and especially the 3rd test he was pretty much single handed etc, but before it he's not been ATG material as one can't recall that he won or saved a single test for them.

Time will tell if this series was a 1-off or the previous 5 were the norm, where he was good but not the best bat in the SA team.

 

[Ikki]

India wasn't included but SL was because Ponting failed in India and Kallis dosn't have a great record against SL. It suits the agenda.

Ironically, Ponting averages 79 (IIRC) at home against India. If we were making a top 5 attacks faced at home it would suit "my agenda" to put him in there.

 

[Uppercut]

OK I missed that. I don't agree with it though, I think India have had a better attack than SL in SA conditions during Kallis's career.

Instead of making an arbitrary judgment, we could always look at their respective records in South Africa. India averaged 33 runs per wicket, Sri Lanka 34. Bear in mind that this includes the huuuge discrepancy in Kallis himself's performance, which ideally we'd want to exclude, so really the Indian attack has proved more challenging by a small but definite amount.

And it makes a hell of a difference, because Kallis's home average against top five attacks is now a quite sick 52.

 

[jeevan]

Instead of making an arbitrary judgment, we could always look at their respective records in South Africa. India averaged 33 runs per wicket, Sri Lanka 34. Bear in mind that this includes the huuuge discrepancy in Kallis himself's performance, which ideally we'd want to exclude, so really the Indian attack has proved more challenging by a small but definite amount.

And it makes a hell of a difference, because Kallis's home average against top five attacks is now a quite sick 52.

We may be reading more into Kallis' performance in SA vs SL or Ind than there may be.
For one, it appears SL toured in 1998, 2000, 2002
India toured in 2001, 2006 and this average busting one that just happened.

By all accounts Kallis pre-2000 was not in the same league as Kallis of more recent times. So, when you look into the innings - with the very important exception of the ones that just concluded - none have been dominant performances against either team, not even a ton.

I agree with your implied observation wrt Indian bowling (which I think of has having been more effective as a sum than the parts that are modest &/or inconsistent individually. )

 

[Uppercut]

Aye. He was also utterly fantastic at home against the top-quality English attacks of 2005 and 2009 and was relatively poor against the much weaker English attacks he faced.

 

[Ikki]

We may be reading more into Kallis' performance in SA vs SL or Ind than there may be.
For one, it appears SL toured in 1998, 2000, 2002
India toured in 2001, 2006 and this average busting one that just happened.

By all accounts Kallis pre-2000 was not in the same league as Kallis of more recent times. So, when you look into the innings - with the very important exception of the ones that just concluded - none have been dominant performances against either team, not even a ton.

I agree with your implied observation wrt Indian bowling (which I think of has having been more effective as a sum than the parts that are modest &/or inconsistent individually. )

From 2000-2002 Kallis was scoring a lot - averaged 61.

 

[vcs]

Instead of making an arbitrary judgment, we could always look at their respective records in South Africa. India averaged 33 runs per wicket, Sri Lanka 34. Bear in mind that this includes the huuuge discrepancy in Kallis himself's performance, which ideally we'd want to exclude, so really the Indian attack has proved more challenging by a small but definite amount.

And it makes a hell of a difference, because Kallis's home average against top five attacks is now a quite sick 52.

Yep, thanks for Statsguru-ing it for me.

 

[bagapath]

15 years ago.... a lot of great players like ponting, dravid and kallis started their careers in 95-96, and so did several very good ones like laxman and ganguly. greats like warne and murali and mcgrath and donald started perfecting their crafts that took them to the very top of the bowling profession. pollock started and continued to dominate world cricket as a great bowling all rounder for close to a decade. australia ended west indian dominace and became world no.1. india started winning abroad and dethroned australia.

considering all this i have chosen australia, england, pakistan, south africa and sri lanka as the top five bowling lineups in the world in the last decade and a half. india, west indies (despite the two great opening bowlers) and nz were not, imo, good enough to be bunched with the above mentioned five lineups.

in the past 15 years, against these five attacks this is how the top batters have performed.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

I know this thread is about kallis as a batsman alone but in case anyone is interested in knowing how the bowlers have performed in the past 15 years against top teams, i nominate india, australia, south africa, england and sri lanka as the top batting line ups. and this is how bowlers who have taken 100+ wickets against them rank.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

EDIT: thanks for the correction centurymaker

 

[shankar]

Surely if by making minor changes to the 5th attack, one's evaluation of the batsman goes from ordinary to brilliant, that tells us more about uselessness of the method of evaluation than anything about the batsman in question?

 

[vcs]

SehWAG.

 

[bagapath]

against all top teams in the past 15 years...

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

kallis does like to play against india, west indies and nz. doesnt he? thats a mighty leap from the bottom five to the very top of the list.

 

[centurymaker]

15 years ago.... a lot of great players like ponting, dravid and kallis started their careers in 95-96, and so did several very good ones like laxman and ganguly. greats like warne and murali and mcgrath and donald started perfecting their crafts that took them to the very top of the bowling profession. pollock started and continued to dominate world cricket as a great bowling all rounder for close to a decade. australia ended west indian dominace and became world no.1. india started winning abroad and dethroned australia.

considering all this i have chosen australia, england, pakistan, south africa and sri lanka as the top five bowling lineups in the world in the last decade and a half. india, west indies (despite the two great opening bowlers) and nz were not, imo, good enough to be bunched with the above mentioned five lineups.

in the past 15 years, against these five attacks this is how the top batters have performed.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

I know this thread is about kallis as a batsman alone but in case anyone is interested in knowing how the bowlers have performed in the past 15 years against top temas, i nominate india, australia, south africa, england and sri lanka as the top batting line ups. and this is how bowlers who have taken 100+ wickets against them rank.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
this is the correct link for the bowlers.

 

[vcs]

Surely if by making minor changes to the 5th attack, one's evaluation of the batsman goes from ordinary to brilliant, that tells us more about uselessness of the method of evaluation than anything about the batsman in question?

Agree totally.

 

[Teja.]

SehWAG.

18 of his 22 hundreds in there. So awesome.